Hi Azinorum! i find it hard to belive that you are blaming the Iraqies ( regardless the faith ) for conspiracy in the hanging of the dictator Saddam, to start with he didnt get what he deserved, no single Iraqi family that has not cried during his regime or even after his regime due to his followers, now as far as the hanging on the Eid day i would like to agree that was not the right thing to do but i keep asking myself DIDNT HE KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE ON THOSE HOLY DAYS he killed people for fun 24/7 so that thought makes me justify what happened to him, as we say what goes around comes around God humilliated him. Secondly i personely belive that the idea behind what happened ( filming the silly and sicking stuff like yelling Maqtada or Sadars names ) is just to create violence between Sinna's & Shiaa iam Shiaa i never knew a single differance between us & Sinna's or even Christians or any other faiths we lived happily before so what happened at once that we started despising each other, so i think it is obvious that the target was to kill more innocent people again no matter REGARDLESS THE FAITH, now the quation is who gaining by doing this iam sure we all know it. Let us wait and see what gonna happen to our oil!!!!!!!!!!!
"i find it hard to belive that you are blaming the Iraqies (regardless the faith) for conspiracy in the hanging of the dictator Saddam."
Let’s look at the questions raised by the execution:
1. Why Execute Saddam on the first day of Eid? 2. Why allow the hanging to be filmed and later released for the whole world to see? 3. Why Execute Saddam based on what is considered to be the weakest case against him?
Points one and two are the fault of the Maliki Government (Iraqis). They were in control of Saddam for the final 3 days prior to the hanging and could have changed the execution date. They should also have exercised tighter control and vetted those present before allowing them to be part of the proceedings.
Point 3 is the fault of the Americans. That’s how I see it (reasons explained in my earlier post quoted below).
“There is a theory as far as why they executed him for this case (Dujail). During 1980s many countries supplied Iraq with weapons while others purchased and supplied Saddam whenever a cover was needed. Countries such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, United States, United Kingdom, Germany, France, China and Russia (just to name a few) would have had to be named and their involvement explained. During the Iraq/Iran war Saudi and Kuwaiti money supported Iraq and it was the West that supplied the weapons, chemicals and technical assistance. This is why they didn’t want Saddam to be tried for Halabcha and war crime against Iran. The Americans and their companies were the main suppliers of Saddam’s regime and would have been implicated. This is why I think it was an American decision to get rid of Saddam before the information went public.”
This is how I see it anyway.
“Secondly i personely belive that the idea behind what happened ( filming the silly and sicking stuff like yelling Maqtada or Sadars names ) is just to create violence between Sinna's & Shiaa”
I guess we didn’t love each other as much as we thought. Like you I didn’t feel there was any animosity between Iraqis but subsequent events have proved otherwise.
< Message edited by azinorum -- 1/15/2007 2:55:18 AM >
بحضور قاض وطبيب ومدع عام تأكيد إعدام البندر وانفصال رأس برزان عن جسمه لدى شنقه بغداد-15-1 : فيما أكدت الحكومة العراقية تنفيذ حكم الإعدام فجر الاثنين 15-1-2007 ببرزان التكريتي الاخ غير الشقيق للرئيس الراحل صدام حسين, ورئيس المحكمة الثورية السابق عواد البندر اثر ادانتهما في قضية مقتل 148 شيعيا في الدجيل مطلع الثمانينات، قال المتحدث باسم الحكومة العراقية ان رأس برزان انفصلت عن جسمه لدى شنقه. وقال الدباغ "تم تنفيذ حكم الاعدام شنقا ببرزان التكريتي وعواد البندر فجرا", مشيرا الى "انفصال رأس برزان عن جسده اثناء العملية". واوضح ان تنفيذ حكمي الاعدام تم "بحضور قاض وطبيب ومدع عام". وتابع انه "تم ابلاغ جميع الحضور ضرورة الالتزام والسلوك والانضباط واحترام مثل هذه التعهدات خطيا". واضاف انه سيتم "الطلب الى عائلته لاستلام جثمانه". تنفيذ حكم الاعدام ببرزان والبندر أكد علي الدباغ الناطق الرسمي باسم الحكومة العراقية تنفيذ الحكم شنقا بحق كل من الاخ غير الشقيق لصدام حسين برزان التكريتي والرئيس السابق لمحكمة الثورة عواد البندر في الساعة الثالثة من فجر الاثنين، وقال إن جثتيهما قد سلمت للشرطة العراقية التي طلبت من ذويهما استلامهما. وقال الدباغ إن تنفيذ الحكم جرى بحضور عدد محدود من الاشخاص، وان المدانين لم يتعرضا الى اية ممارسات مهينة. واضاف ان الذين حضروا تنفيذ الحكم قد وقعوا على تعهدات خطية بعدم تصوير المراسم. وقال الدباغ إن رأس برزان انفصل عن جسده اثناء تنفيذ الحكم بحقه. ويذكر ان هذا قد يحصل اذا كان الحبل المستخدم في عملية الشنق طويل جدا. وكان الرئيس العراقي جلال طالباني قد حث حكومة نوري المالكي التريث في موضوع تنفيذ احكام الاعدام بحق برزان والبندر. تضارب وتضاربت الانباء اول الامر حول ما اذا كانت الاحكام قد نفذت ام لا. فقد ذكرت وكالة الاسوشيتد برس اول الامر الى ان نائب المدعي العام العراقي منقذ الفرعون قد اكد اعدام برزان، الا ان الفرعون عاد ونفى علمه بتنفيذ الاعدام. ولكن بديع عارف محامي عواد البندر قال إن ابن البندر قد اخبره انه قد علم عن طريق مسؤولين امريكيين والده وبرزان ابراهيم قد اعدما يوم الاثنين. وقال عارف إن السلطات الامريكية عرضت على ابن البندر مساعدتها في دفن جنازة والده وتوفير الحماية له اثناء تشييع الجنازة. وفي حديث مع بي بي سي، عبر وكيل وزارة الخارجية العراقية محمد حمودعن اعتقاده بأن نبأ تنفيذ احكام الاعدام صحيح. جرائم وكان برزان، الذي كان يرأس جهاز الاستخبارات العراقية العراقية خلال عهد صدام، والبندر قد ادينا بارتكاب جرائم ضد الانسانية في بقضية مقتل 148 شخصا في بلدة الدجيل عام 1982، وهي نفس القضية التي حكم فيها على صدام بالاعدام. وكان من المقرر اعدام التكريتي والبندر مع الرئيس السابق صدام حسين الا ان السلطات العراقية كانت قد قررت غير ذلك. "عدالة" وفي معرض رده على تنفيذ حكم الاعدام لبرزان والبندر، قال البيت الابيض إن الحكومة العراقية تحقق العدالة بحق اولئك الذين ادينوا بارتكاب جرائم ضد الشعب العراقي. وقال سكوت ستانزل الناطق باسم البيت الابيض إن "للعراق حكومة ذات سيادة تستخدم نظامها القضائي لتحقيق العدالة بحق اولئك الذين ارتكبوا جرائم وحشية ضد الانسانية." العوجة ونقلت وكالة رويترز للانباء عن محافظ صلاح الدين قوله إن جثمان برزان سيدفن في مقبرة العوجة مسقط رأسه، وليس في نفس المكان الذي دفن فيه صدام حسين في الشهر الماضي
it is a disgrace they will always be tratiors in hussien s time they were traitors and they still are now they tratiored on saddam barzan and awad they a shia yes but they are not arab they a from iran and the kurd is also traitors everybody is saying the same thing the are not men they a coocarouces they a pigs long live saddam and barzan and awad in our heart
ربما كلام الاخ البيان وشكوكه لها صحة في الموضوع فالننظر ما قاله الجانب الطبي
الطب الشرعي يشكك
إلا أن أطباء شرعيين شككوا بأن يؤدي الاعدام شنقا إلى فصل رأس الشخص المشنوق عن جسده، وذلك في معرض تعليقهم على إعلان المتحدث الحكومي علي الدباغ في مؤتمر صحفي أن "رأس برزان التكريتي انفصل عن جسمه في واقعة نادرة لدى شنقه الساعة الثالثة صباح اليوم" .
وقال الطبيب الشرعي السوري عبد الرحمن باريش إن الرأس لا ينفصل عن الجسد بعد الشنق إلا في حالتين: إذا تأخر تعليق الجثة لمدة زمنية تصل إلى أكثر من يوم كامل، وإذا قذف بالشخص من مسافة عالية جدا وهو معلق بحبل .
وأوضح لـ"العربية.نت": حتى لو لم يمت من المرة الأولى وشنق ثانية لا تنفصل رأسه ولا يمكن أن تنفصل حتى لو أعيد شنقه مرات عديدة.
واضاف: لمعرفة ما جرى وكيف فصل الرأس عن الجسد يجب فحص الجثة بشكل دقيق وما حصل من تمزقات أو تفسخ، ولا علاقة لاصابته بالسرطان بانفصال رأسه عن جسده.
ومن جانبه قال الطبيب الشرعي السوري عبد القادر عرجة، والذي يعتبر من أقدم الأطباء الشرعيين في بلاده، لـ"العربية.نت": ليس واردا في الطب الشرعي أبدا أن تنفصل الرأس عن الجسد بعد عملية الاعدام شنقا.
وأضاف "إذا كان المولود الصغير أثناء إخراجه خلال الولادة يتحمل رأسه ثقلا اثناء السحب يصل إلى 50 كليوغراما، وهنا في هذه الحالة يتحمل الشخص مثل برزان الشد لأكثر من 150 كليوغراما، فمن أين أتى هذا الشد بهذا الثقل الكبير حتى تنفصل الرأس؟".
وأوضح د. عرجة للعربية.نت تفاصيل عمليات الاعدام وكيفية حصولها، من واقع حضوره لاعدامات كثيرة، وقال: يحصل ضغط على شرايين العنق من الطرفين مما يؤدي إلى نقص التروية الدماغية وتوقف الدم عن الدماغ وهذا ما نسميه انضغاط الشرايين الثباتية على طرفي العنق مما يؤدي لنقص التروية عن الدماغ والمراكز القلبية والتنفسية، مما يؤدي إلى الموت بفعل ما يسمى الانضغاط الوعائي والعصبي.
ولفت إلى أن طريقة إعدام صدام حسين كما بدت على شاشات التلفزيون كانت خاطئة، مرجعا ذلك إلى كون عقدة الحبل كانت على جانب العنق الأيسر فيما كان يجب أن توضع على مؤخرة العنق، لأن وضع العقدة على مؤخرة العنق تجعل الحبل يضغط على طرفي العنق مما يؤدي للوفاة بسرعة.
وأشار إلى أن الشنق وتوقف القلب والدماغ والوفاة عملية تستغرق من 4 إلى 5 دقائق كما أن الشخص يمر بحالة اللاوعي بين الشنق والوفاة وخلالها يشخر ويتألم في حالة لاوعيه. كما قال د. عبد القادر عرجة إن كسر العظ اللامي لوحده في عنق المشنوق لا يؤدي للوفاة .
وكانت الحكومة العراقية أكدت تنفيذ حكم الإعدام فجر الاثنين 15-1-2007 ببرزان التكريتي الأخ غير الشقيق للرئيس الراحل صدام حسين، ورئيس المحكمة الثورية السابق عواد البندر اثر ادانتهما في قضية مقتل 148 شيعيا في الدجيل مطلع الثمانينيات.
وكان صدام قد أعدم شنقا فجر يوم 30 ديسمبر/كانون الأول الذي وافق أول أيام عيد الاضحى بعد أربعة أيام من رفض محكمة التمييز استئنافا قدمه
the kurds they were always before 200 years ago at the days of the ottoman empire when they the land that it is not and never will be theres and they know that very well, because simply they do not have land never.
Mr azinorem It seams to be resonable but are you beleave that?
I didn't say I believed anything. In fact I reacted with some skepticism.
"Theres a rumour that Barazan's cancer medication made his bones brittle which caused the decapitation. Sounds fishy to me!"
What I should've said is SMELLS FISHY but you get my point. I don't want to start theorizing because theres bound to be a video leaked soon. Some journalists have seen a video of the execution and all describe the events in the same way. The only way to be sure is to watch the video ourselves. Given what happened to Barazan I can't say I'm looking forward to it!
إلا أن أطباء شرعيين شككوا بأن يؤدي الاعدام شنقا إلى فصل رأس الشخص المشنوق عن جسده، وذلك في معرض تعليقهم على إعلان المتحدث الحكومي علي الدباغ في مؤتمر صحفي أن "رأس برزان التكريتي انفصل عن جسمه في واقعة نادرة لدى شنقه الساعة الثالثة صباح اليوم" .
وقال الطبيب الشرعي السوري عبد الرحمن باريش إن الرأس لا ينفصل عن الجسد بعد الشنق إلا في حالتين: إذا تأخر تعليق الجثة لمدة زمنية تصل إلى أكثر من يوم كامل، وإذا قذف بالشخص من مسافة عالية جدا وهو معلق بحبل .
وأوضح لـ"العربية.نت": حتى لو لم يمت من المرة الأولى وشنق ثانية لا تنفصل رأسه ولا يمكن أن تنفصل حتى لو أعيد شنقه مرات عديدة.
واضاف: لمعرفة ما جرى وكيف فصل الرأس عن الجسد يجب فحص الجثة بشكل دقيق وما حصل من تمزقات أو تفسخ، ولا علاقة لاصابته بالسرطان بانفصال رأسه عن جسده.
I'd rather judge for myself but I don't relish the idea of watching a mans head being torn off. What really happened to Barazans head isn't important. The Saddam video already did the damage. The behavior of the Sadr representatives insured that those who've tried to use the executions to make political/religious statements failed shamefully. If these events were designed and choreographed to make Saddam small and whimpering at their feet, they failed 100%. It worked in exactly the opposite way. Saddam looked brave and defiant and the actions of the Sadr morons may ultimately lead to their masters demise.
You've read my earlier posts so you know I'm not happy to see Saddam become a martyr in some peoples eyes. At the same time the executions and the events surrounding them were sickening to me. But they might just have a positive twist. Lets wait and see. I spoke to some friends in Baghdad who told me the Mahdi army have been absent from the streets in the past 3 days. No illegal Sadr checkpoints to harass and intimidate them on their way to work. No Armed Mahdi Militias dressed in black all over the place. I have a feeling Sadr just lost some important allies and for the first time in a long time, his advisor's are genuinely worried. Perhaps the executions will lead to Sadr's Militia being forced to disband and Saddam will have done something good in death. I'm trying to be positive you see. It's my new years resolution.
< Message edited by azinorum -- 1/15/2007 6:23:25 PM >
Bush's plan raises concerns among Al Sadr followers By Basil Adas, Correspondent
Baghdad: After the announcement of US President George W. Bush's new strategy on Iraq, the political Shiite leaderships are heading towards the Supreme Shiite Authorities in Najaf.
Abdul Aziz Al Hakim, the Shiite coalition leader, met the religious guide Grand Ayatollah Ali Al Sistani, as did Mofaq Al Rubaei, the national security adviser who previously met the young Shiite leader Moqtada Al Sadr. Some sources confirmed that Shiites are preparing a plan to settle the Iranian influence in Iraq and the fate of the Mehdi Army led by Al Sadr before the stable Shiite-American relationship turns to escalation and confrontation.
Riyadh Al Nouri, a prominent figure in the Al Sadr camp, warned against sending additional US troops to Iraq.
He told Gulf News: "The Mehdi Army's is for self-defence not to implement terrorist operations and, therefore, it is not concerned with any security plan in Baghdad.
"The Americans are preparing to attack the Mehdi Army and they don't need a pretext to do that. Maliki's word doesn't seem to be convincing to the Americans nor to the Sunni Arabs who accuse the Mehdi Army of being involved in sectarian assassinations and depopulating Baghdad from Sunnis."
The Shiite coalition faces an inner discord between two sectors. One of them is led by Al Hakim, Al Jaafari, Al Maliki and Al Rubaie who believe in further response with the US issue of rebuffing the Iranian influence.
Some confidential reports say President Bush submitted strong evidence to Al Hakim and Al Maliki of Iranian involvement in the Iraqi security situation through supporting various armed groups.
This team wants to dissolve the Mehdi Army and remerge some of its elements in state institutions. The other team is the Sadr group of supporters, including the Fadhila Party and some independent members in the Shiite coalition who prefer confrontation with America because they think the real reason behind incurring the Mehdi Army is to appease Baath members and arrange for Sunni Arabs' annexation in the political process.
"The perfect foundation of any new security plan set by either President Bush or Al Maliki is to achieve a balance in fighting extremists on both sides," said Ala'a Makki, a leader in the Sunni Accordance Front, to Gulf News.
He added: "I believe if Al Maliki's decisions were taken according to this base, it would lead to a successful government and security restoration in Baghdad and other Iraqi cities. The Sunni political forces urge Al Maliki to take a courageous decision to strike the Mehdi Army and other armed Shiite militia backed by Iran."
Analysts in Baghdad say the decision to withdraw US troops from Iraq is in the hands of President Bush who has persuaded the Iraqi Kurdish and Shiite leaders to fight the Iranian influence and to rebuff the Mehdi Army, otherwise the Iraqi political process will collapse and the US will withdraw support for the Iraqi government.
< Message edited by azinorum -- 1/16/2007 3:21:46 AM >
Al-Sadr and his ruthless army must go By J.R. Labbe - January 16, 2007
Job 1 for the additional U.S. troops in Baghdad comes Feb. 1: Dispatch Muqtada al-Sadr to whatever fiery corner of hell is reserved for his militia-supporting, violence-inciting, hatred-spewing self.
That action could have the most immediate change in the situation in Iraq. So long as Sadr and his Mahdi Army operate unfettered, the promises of President Bush and Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to craft diplomatic and political solutions are nothing more than rhetoric.
Of course, given the track record of former Islamic radicals of squirreling themselves away in some hidey-hole once they know that their sixes have been painted by U.S. weapons, don't expect the Shi'a cleric to be sticking around the eastern Baghdad area named for his family.
In his speech Wednesday night on the "new strategy" in Iraq, Bush said that "Iraqi and American forces will have a green light to enter these neighborhoods - and Prime Minister Maliki has pledged that political or sectarian interference will not be tolerated."
If this proves true (and excuse me for expressing more than a touch of skepticism about the truthful nature of Bush's proclamations on Iraq), Maliki's decision is a dangerous gamble - if life in Iraq for a U.S. ally can get any more dangerous.
Even though Maliki and Sadr are both Shi'a, the hope appears to be that Maliki's connection to the modern secular world and his revulsion with Sadr's tactics will combine with a very strong instinct for self-preservation to yield some good result for all the Iraqi people.
It's possible, I suppose. As a former naval aviator friend of mine offered by quoting Boswell's "Life of Johnson": "Depend upon it, sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully."
Maliki faces a lose-lose proposition of the gravest order. If he doesn't turn on the Shiite radicals in Sadr City and demonstrate an even-handedness in how the government will approach its many challenges, the United States will leave (or so said the president Wednesday night), and Maliki's days on this earth will be numbered. If he does turn on the fundamentalist Shiites - the equivalent of Bush turning on religious conservatives - Maliki risks losing power and may well still be killed.
Let us not forget that as recently as October, Maliki ordered the release of one of Sadr's senior aides, who had been arrested a day earlier by U.S. troops on suspicion of participating in kidnappings and killings. The dynamic between Maliki and Sadr isn't the only problematic one. There's still the Iranian-Syrian dynamic, which prompted the president's proclamation that "we will interrupt the flow of support from Iran and Syria. And we will seek out and destroy the networks providing advanced weaponry and training to our enemies in Iraq."
The only reason that either country would want U.S. success in Iraq is that it might induce the Western infidels to leave sometime in the next five to 10 years.
The Iranians are Persians, not Arabs. The animosity between the two is long-standing. Middle Eastern Arabs will go back to hating the Iranians as soon as the situation calms down - it's the old "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" syndrome. And this historical hatred will reignite, particularly if Sadr is off'd and the Shiite Iranians no longer have him as their boy in Baghdad.
Iranian diplomatic assistance will happen only to the extent that the United States cuts Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad some slack on his nukes, and this administration has made clear that that isn't happening. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice repeated it yet again Thursday at a news conference before plodding up the Hill to testify before the House.
"If the government in Tehran wants to help stabilize the region, as it now claims, then it should end its support for violent extremists who destroy the aspirations of innocent Lebanese, Palestinians and Iraqis, and it should end its pursuit of nuclear weapons," Rice said.
Before the Syrians sign on to the diplomacy train, they will want a freer hand in "shaping" the leadership of Lebanon and will want more pressure on the Israelis to give up the Golan Heights. Supposing that that administration actually agreed to this, the United States would be seen as selling out both the Lebanese and the Israelis.
See why it's easier for Bush to avoid any kind of diplomatic discussion with either of them?
It remains to be seen if Maliki will be able to accomplish what Bush has never even attempted here, in a functioning democracy more than 200 years old: Turn his back on his base in the interest of the greater good.
Yes mr Azinorem you are right about the head of barzan, but the probleme that our governement lost its respect national and international,because it was a humitrinizem probleme.
FOR MAHDI ARMY ,they escape like the rates and told flasly that they change to Association.
< Message edited by al ani -- 1/16/2007 8:41:04 AM >
ORIGINAL: al ani Yes mr Azinorem you are right about the head of barzan, but the probleme that our governement lost its respect national and international,because it was a humitrinizem probleme.
But Al Ani, the government didn't have our respect to begin with. How can they lose what they don't have?
This is the problem when you get a democracy handed to you on a plate. How can we respect the government when we know they were watching the war unfold from their 5 star hotel rooms in Tehran and London? What the execution did was show us the truth. It's the Iranian Militias that rule the country and this Maliki government is afraid to take charge. As I said in my earlier message, I want to try to stay positive despite the fact that recent events haven't made this easy. This new security strategy is Maliki's last chance to get rid of the Militias and prove us all wrong. If he fails then I will go back to being my miserable, negative old self.
Hi Azinorum! Thank you for making a time to read my opinion but no disrespect to you i dont think you have quite understood what i tried to express, the 3 questions, that you have raised are the conspiracy in whole process. But lets not forget the last Iraqi elections we know that the person the Iraqies elected didnot stay in power for long and we got who America thought was right for us (THAT THEY THOUGHT GOOD FOR US NOT WHO WE THINK IS RIGHT FOR USE) so what would any one expect to get from a goverment that been selected by .........., well we know for sure that if the present goverment doesnt do what they get told they are simply FIRED LOL, the quation that comes up is what is the differance between the last 2 goverments that we had!!!(BOTH BEEN ELECTED FOR US) I belive if Iraq's situatuin is not what it is now ( Conspiracy in the Security situation of Iraq from the occupation forces) America we have no reason to stay there what so ever so ,were they silly enough to spend all that money without making 1000% profit ??????? lets not mention any thing about the inncoent humen lives from all parties involved in the conflict as they worth no thing when it comes to money (OIL). To have full and easy control on any countries wealth and goverment is to aquire the security from its people, who would have time to think about politics when they are not even safe to walk on the road???? who would care what happens to the oil or to any goverment related issues??? So to stay there and give people no time to think or to justify their presence """"THERE IS NO SECURITY"""" i think that they will stay there JUSTIFIABILY till that 1000% gets recovered.
Melbourne 06: Sorry but I didn’t understand some of your post. Nevertheless I will say that the Americans don’t need a ‘justifiable’ reason to stay in Iraq just like they didn’t have a ‘justifiable’ reason to invade in the first place. Even if security was returned they would quite simply find another excuse to be there. With that in mind I would think they’d make much more profit if the security situation was better. They could then take more of our oil and award the big reconstruction contracts to their companies.
اعتبر الرئيس الأمريكي جورج بوش الثلاثاء 16-1-2007 أن تنفيذ حكم الإعدام بالرئيس العراقي السابق صدام حسين يبدو "عملا انتقاميا" طائفيا يزيد من صعوبة وقف العنف في العراق. وقال بوش لشبكة بي.بي.اس التلفزيونية العامة، إن شنق صدام حسين "عزز الشكوك" حول رئيس الوزراء العراقي نوري المالكي وأكد بوضوح أن حكومته "ما زالت تفتقر إلى بعض النضج"،و"تخبطت"
< Message edited by al ani -- 1/17/2007 8:47:58 AM >
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