Enough killing

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Calm -> Enough killing (12/26/2006 2:25:20 PM)
Salam to all of you I have been reading the input many of you had contributed to this site. Some were great, fantastic but other, grow up and go and live there. Muslims killing muslims, and has nothing to do with the americans or the british, i am not defending either of them. In the world today there are more muslims dying by the hands of their fellow muslims than by any other religion, country or group. This is the beginning of the end of Islam unless those so called relgious guru will get away from politics and get back to religion. If you are a Sunni or Shiat, show me where in the holy book where you are permitted to kill, where in Alah's Name, and who told you there are 27 virgins waiting for you in heaven for killing other innocent people. Does god has no other business to worry about than creating virgins???? Isn't one woman per man enough???? When I was growing up in Baghdad, there were no tension between any religion, any class of people. We played together in school, in the parks, in the streets, and it was safe. It was even safe for a woman to go out shopping on her own without being raped, kidnapped or harrassed. WHAT HAPPENED TO US NOW? Instead of defending our country by working together against the interfrence of Iraq, Syria, Saudi, Kuwait or any other country, we allowed the lot of them to come in and enjoy a holiday in our country killing our own people. I don't care what government we have, but they do need our support, our country needs our support, build and don't destroy. Enough Enough Enough killing.

sadiq2006 -> RE: Enough killing (12/26/2006 2:56:36 PM)
mr. calm teach yourself these things and also as an american citizen from the united states of america, the arabs do not want iraq to be better than them and also iran is making to much problem to iraq you iraqis you never killed each other before even from long centuries before but your crazy government that it is not caring and never help you because simply they are puppet of USA.

azinorum -> RE: Enough killing (12/26/2006 4:28:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Calm Salam to all of you I have been reading the input many of you had contributed to this site. Some were great, fantastic but other, grow up and go and live there. Muslims killing muslims, and has nothing to do with the americans or the british, i am not defending either of them. In the world today there are more muslims dying by the hands of their fellow muslims than by any other religion, country or group. This is the beginning of the end of Islam unless those so called relgious guru will get away from politics and get back to religion. If you are a Sunni or Shiat, show me where in the holy book where you are permitted to kill, where in Alah's Name, and who told you there are 27 virgins waiting for you in heaven for killing other innocent people. Does god has no other business to worry about than creating virgins???? Isn't one woman per man enough???? When I was growing up in Baghdad, there were no tension between any religion, any class of people. We played together in school, in the parks, in the streets, and it was safe. It was even safe for a woman to go out shopping on her own without being raped, kidnapped or harrassed. WHAT HAPPENED TO US NOW? Instead of defending our country by working together against the interfrence of Iraq, Syria, Saudi, Kuwait or any other country, we allowed the lot of them to come in and enjoy a holiday in our country killing our own people. I don't care what government we have, but they do need our support, our country needs our support, build and don't destroy. Enough Enough Enough killing. I agree. Most important first step is to seperate religion from politics. By the way welcome to the forum Calm.

al ani -> RE: Enough killing (12/26/2006 4:52:04 PM)
dear mr sadiq2006 HAPPY TO MET YOU IN THIS TOPIC: I agree with you that Iran was the important killer in iraq as alqaida also, because the weekness of the creazy goverment wich ashame to prevent the iran peoples to enter iraq,this goverment cosider iran as spirt father and in that case we fill in the derty sea .

Zeynab Hassan -> RE: Enough killing (12/27/2006 10:29:26 PM)
I don't think you could get away with saying things like that about muslims Mr. calm, because they are the majority of Iraq's population. Muslims are not the ones killing each other. Its the kaffers like you that kill the muslims. Whose killing the muslims in Palestine, Afghanistan, Chechan and many other places. Muslims don't hate each other they think of each other as brothers and sisters. Its true this is going on in Iraq but thats not all the muslims in the world. Did you forget what the anglicans and Puritans did to each other so you can tell me this now. This is going on every day between people its just human nature...everyone wishes the best for them selves which is not part of our belief. We (as Muslims) have to wish the best for everyone as well as our selves. And can you tell me where you got the thing about the "27 virgins waiting for you in heaven for killing other innocent people" from. I don't think you have any proof of that, if so then tell me where you got that from.

Calm -> RE: Enough killing (12/27/2006 11:44:15 PM)
My Dear Zeynab I wasn't attacking Muslims, and pls don't say people like me, because you don't know me. I am glad you didn't understand my message, now I can explain. Islam means peace, and nowhere in the teachings that a person should kill himself and kill others in the name of Islam, the only one who can do this is Alah himself. God created us, and God takes away, and no one has the right to kill. God gave us brains to think, a tongue to negociate, and the will to try and try again. Its easy to walk away from our problems, and much easier to take a gun and kill the people who they have the conflict with. All that effort is wasted, we are destroying our present, our future, and we long have forgotten our past, and what a super nation we could have been. I spoke to my brother on the phone today, he is in Baghdad, I heard 7 Bombs explode, maybe on the news they say 2 or 3. He laughed and said I can hear them therefore I am alive!!!! I wonder if anyone can sleep the night peacefully. Kaffer or no Kaffer muslims are killing muslims in Iraq, in Afganistan, and many other countries. Enough killing.

sadiq2006 -> RE: Enough killing (12/28/2006 3:55:57 AM)
mr. calm these are not muslims how are killing innocent muslims, these are animals hence the animals are much much better then these how call themselves fanacist (bad) muslims or kafer, in iraq (mesopotamia cradle of civilization) they never hated each other for long long centuries, they loved each other very well and do not the bad muslims were omeyains leader how ruled syria and then they ruled iraq in a very bad way, this is the first day of dictator from those bad syrian leaders before 1400 years ago they killed (ali, haasan, hasan, abdulla bin zubair the naphew of great great (abu baker al siddiq god bless him) and that basterd hajjaj bin husif al thaqafi he killed him and hence that is the first dictator happend.

azinorum -> RE: Enough killing (12/28/2006 4:00:50 AM)
Welcome back Zeynab. Muslims are not the ones killing each other. Its the kaffers like you that kill the Muslims. Can you please define Kaffer. It seems to me that one man’s Kaffer is another man’s martyr. Whose killing the muslims in Palestine, Afghanistan, Chechan and many other places. Muslims don't hate each other they think of each other as brothers and sisters. Hamas v. Fatah. These are Muslims aren’t they? Its true this is going on in Iraq but thats not all the muslims in the world. Agreed This is going on every day between people its just human nature...everyone wishes the best for them selves which is not part of our belief. We (as Muslims) have to wish the best for everyone as well as our selves. Yes this is true but unfortunately not the case. I’ll quote one of your earlier messages “And I also want to say that I don't have a problem aganist Kurds because I have kurdish friends and some of them are really nice, and they are Muslims so I can't hate them”. Do you mean that if they were Christians, Jews, Buddhists or any other none Muslims it would be easier for you to hate them? And can you tell me where you got the thing about the "27 virgins waiting for you in heaven for killing other innocent people" from. I don't think you have any proof of that, if so then tell me where you got that from. As a none practicing Muslim I would also be interested to know where Calm came up with that one. I can understand where Calm is coming from and the main point he makes is stop bringing religion into politics which I am in total agreement with. Ansar Al Sunna, Badder, Mehdi Army, Al Qaeda, and countless other Militias define themselves as Muslim’s and murder innocent civilians in the name of Allah. I know they are Kuffar but they don’t think of themselves in that way. The people funding these organizations are also Muslims. Separate religion from politics, it’s the only way for both to function correctly. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Azinorum.

sadiq2006 -> RE: Enough killing (12/28/2006 4:11:33 AM)
AZINORUM FIRST RESPECT ZAYNAB BECAUSE HSE IS A GOOD PERSON AND SHE DID NOT MEAN ANYTHING BAD TO ALL OF US OR TO YOU, AND SECOND THERE ARE MANY MANY BAD MUSLIMS AROUND THE WORLD AND SPECIALLY IN THE MIDDLE EAST OR HAVE YOU FORGOT ABOUT IT AND ALSO THE ARABS THEY NEVER LIKED IRAQ BEFORE, BECAUSE THEY KNOW IRAQ WILL STAY ALWAYS THE BEST LAND IN EVERYTHING, AND STOP, AND ALSO SEPARATING RELIGION FROM POLITICS IT IS ALSO I AGREE WITH YOU, BUT IN THE END RESPECT ZEYNAB.

azinorum -> RE: Enough killing (12/28/2006 7:02:30 AM)
Don't worry my friend I am not insulting anyone.[:D] We all respect Zeynab especialy since she is the only one who can give us a womans perspective on events in Iraq. However this doesn't mean I have to agree with her. Thats the point of these forums, to exchange views and discuss issues despite varying opinions. Its a shame there aren't more ladies on this site.

sadiq2006 -> RE: Enough killing (12/28/2006 7:31:15 AM)
azinorum i do agree with you we need ladies on this site for their opinion.[sm=smiley1.gif]

azinorum -> RE: Enough killing (12/28/2006 7:46:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sadiq2006 azinorum i do agree with you we need ladies on this site for their opinion.[sm=smiley1.gif] Perhaps we should ask Zeynab Hassan to invite her friends to join us. Too much testosterone in one place can't be a good thing.

sadiq2006 -> RE: Enough killing (12/28/2006 9:35:39 AM)
azinorum well if she want too. [sm=rolleyes.gif]

azinorum -> RE: Enough killing (12/28/2006 10:13:31 AM)
I'm sure she wouldn't mind if you asked her nicely enough. Just don't start going on about the Kurds before you've had the chance to ask. [:D]

Zeynab Hassan -> RE: Enough killing (12/30/2006 3:15:16 PM)
Am sure you know what kafer means azinorum. And I want to tell you that Hammas and fatah are political parties after all not just muslims...they only use Islam to attract people to follow them. The other thing you said about hating a non-Muslim, No I don't hate non Muslims, but at the same time I can't hate a Muslim no matter what. And you also always bring up the thing about how religion should be away from politics...well when was iraq's government so religious that they used religion in politics?? The last time that happened was during the time of the Ottoman Empire...and thats like a century ago. Don't tell me those Iranian molas are Muslim leaders...they are only there to reserve a place in parliment. And like I said, they only use religion to attract people to follow them, and if they don't use religion then what can they use?? PS. Happy Eid everyone

azinorum -> RE: Enough killing (12/31/2006 3:44:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zeynab Hassan And like I said, they only use religion to attract people to follow them, and if they don't use religion then what can they use?? It’s just a thought but they could try issuing a political agenda instead of a religious one. They could also issue a set of policies to try and dictate existing and near-future political news and debate without using religion as a platform. Take the execution as an example. The Maliki government should never have allowed these Sadr thugs to be involved in what was supposedly an issue of state. They turned it into a Shia execution by shouting al Sadr’s name. It’s also clear where the Maliki government stands. By choosing the first day of the Sunni Eid to execute Saddam they wanted to send a clear message to all that the Shia’s are running the show now. Again they are clearly using these tactics to divide Iraq on religious lines. It’s true that Saddam was Sunni but that certainly doesn’t mean that all Sunnis are responsible for his crimes.

al ani -> RE: Enough killing (12/31/2006 4:09:56 PM)
AID Saiid and happy new year to all I read a part of this topic and notce that you talk about what called Kafer !!!!! My respect to mr Calm and sister Zeyneb about their real interpretations on the subject, but my ideas are: The real reason of the crimes that happen in Iraq is that the Heads of politicians use the unconsciousness of Shiites and Sunnis in order to change Iraqi’s politic map. The fact that was created after the last elections, and the biggest problem is that the victims of those murders are in general important people( scientists and polititions ) that could change Iraq’s faith (most of them are Sunnis). And we could also add the members of the Baâth party and alqaida to those criminals who support the demolition of the deocracy experment, and they kills and bomberds every where to make terrible in the country.

sadiq2006 -> RE: Enough killing (1/1/2007 3:45:46 AM)
well azinorum well what talking about the kurds it is true, and please guys in the www.iraq4u.com these people in the green zone they the puppets of united states of america and god bless you.

azinorum -> RE: Enough killing (1/1/2007 4:37:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sadiq2006 well azinorum well what talking about the kurds it is true, and please guys in the www.iraq4u.com these people in the green zone they the puppets of united states of america and god bless you. First let me wish all members of IRAQ4U a happy and peaceful New Year. Lets hope that 2007 brings better fortune for Iraq and all Iraqis living at home or abroad. Sadiq: Sorry but I wasn't referring to the Kurds. Did you mean something else? Most foreigners working in the Green Zone are American or employed by Americans so yes they are puppets and war profiteers who don't give a dam about Iraq and are only there to squeeze as much bloob money as they can. However there are also many ordinary Iraqis working in the Green Zone who do it purely for the money and not out of any loyalty to the occupiers. Day to day expenses and the rising cost of goods in Iraq means that there are many who are desperate for employment that pays good wages in order to survive. I don't have any bad feeling toward the normal Iraqis that work there. I do however find the idea that Iraqi government personnel sit in the safety and comfort of the GZ while the rest of Baghdad's citizens are dying in their thousands as a result of the Hikuma al jadida's gross incompetence.

azinorum -> RE: Enough killing (1/1/2007 4:51:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: al ani The real reason of the crimes that happen in Iraq is that the Heads of politicians use the unconsciousness of Shiites and Sunnis in order to change Iraqi’s politic map. The fact that was created after the last elections, and the biggest problem is that the victims of those murders are in general important people( scientists and polititions ) that could change Iraq’s faith (most of them are Sunnis). And we could also add the members of the Baâth party and alqaida to those criminals who support the demolition of the deocracy experment, and they kills and bomberds every where to make terrible in the country. Agreed. We are losing most if not all of our educated/professional classes who are either being murdered or forced to flee Iraq which is a disaster for us. This is a preconceived plan so that they can change the political/ethnic map and they're doing this in the name of democracy. I would be interested to know if there are figures showing the percentage of educated professionals that have either fled or have been murdered since 2003. I know that many left Iraq during Saddam's time so it would be interesting to compare the figures between 30 years of Baathist rule against the three and a half years of the occupation. Does anyone have access to such info?

Calm -> RE: Enough killing (1/1/2007 5:44:57 AM)
Respect to all and a very happy new year From what I read, I came to the conclusion that whenever a muslim commit a crime he is a Kafer not a muslim, but when a christain or a jew or budiest commit a crime he/she belongs to that religion. The narrow mindedness we have at the moment is simply due to the millions of intelligent highly educated people leaving Iraq, and the middle east to seek a better life elsewhere, leaving us with those Mullahs to tells us how to run the country according to their understanding of life, which is a laughable nothing. We have the power to make peace, we hae the power to get our oil pumping to maximum capacity, and we better watchout for those ships that disappear in the gulf with our oil. We can start encouraging all our people to come back to Iraq to rebuild, we can open the door to forgien investors. We can turn Iraq into heaven on earth, except we have those backward religious leaders. We lost our way, time to get back to basics, and ask the question, WHAT DO WE WANT FOR OUR COUNTRY?????? we need everyone Shiat, Sunies, Christain. We cannot do it without each other.

sadiq2006 -> RE: Enough killing (1/1/2007 3:31:56 PM)
calm with all do respect iraq will be the same again hence the divided iraq (mesopotamia) in difiirent parts the first they gave the british and the french invasion quarter part of furat river to syria which their there was no syria name before and then the part they the upper north of furat and dijla river to turkey which there was no turkey name before it was only a very small region, this was the divide for iraq (mesopotamia) then they want to divided it again, if you want iraq to become strong again like they 8000 years ago in their civilization, mesopotamia should with all it parts should be back again and hence all these bordres around iraq and the world should vanished and disappered then the world in each place will know how is his land and the kurds will kearn their bad mistakes in the past and mesopotamia will be powerful again, and god bless you all.

Calm -> RE: Enough killing (1/2/2007 1:12:28 AM)
If we united, all iraqis than there is no power in the world can take away whats ours. I cannt see an Iraq without our brothers the Sunni's nor would I see Iraq without the shiat's or the christains. We fought together before, we stood hand in hand, we helped each other, we loved and married and had children. Whoever was responsible to the divide in our society is gone now. Again I ask, what do we really want in the future? We either stop the killing now, or there will not be a country called Iraq anymore.

azinorum -> RE: Enough killing (1/2/2007 4:27:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Calm If we united, all Iraqis than there is no power in the world can take away whats ours. I cannt see an Iraq without our brothers the Sunni's nor would I see Iraq without the shiat's or the christains. We fought together before, we stood hand in hand, we helped each other, we loved and married and had children. Whoever was responsible to the divide in our society is gone now. Again I ask, what do we really want in the future? We either stop the killing now, or there will not be a country called Iraq anymore. Your preaching to the converted my friend. Everyone wants the violence to end. Everyone wants to move forward now and put these infantile differences behind us. Everyone wants to throw their time and energy into building Iraq rather than destroying it. Of course when I say everyone, I mean every true Iraqi - I don't count Ansar Al Sunna, Mehdi Army, Bader brigade and any other group that is responsible for daily violence bloodshed as Iraqi anymore. When you say "whoever was responsible to the divide in our society is gone now" I presume you mean Saddam and his Baath party. However I'm starting to think that peoples hatred and fear of the Tikritis was the only factor that was keeping them together. There's no smoke without fire and if our love for each other as Iraqis was as strong as you and I believed this violence would never have escalated into what it has become. This is the first fact we have to acknowledge before we can move forward. We have to face these differences head on and discuss ways of solving the problems to suite all religious and political denominations. The second fact is what I have long preached on this forum...seperate religion from politics. Don't allow Iraq to be shaped by fanatics and zealots who use the power religion to divide and influence the uneducated classes who don't know any better. Al Ani said it best in one of his previous posts. We all know that the Sunnis in Iraq make the great majority of our scientists, high level engineers, doctors etc. So using this systematic ethnic cleansing policy is robbing our country of an essential human resource which will require at least a generation to re-build again. Without our educated classes we can't rebuild the country and will always have rely on foreign help which is precisely what the American and British Administrations want. The Americans and Brits (Bush and Blair) bear the prime responsibility for the chaos their ill-conceived invasion. We all know this. But the problem of sectarian violence can only be solved by Iraqis. National reconciliation, has to be Iraqi-led. I'm no politician, in fact I've always hated politics, but here are some suggestions: American and British armies to set a timetable of withdrawl from Iraq. The United Nations should get involved to help bring peace and stability in Iraq. The current administration to implement a strong border security policy to stop the insurgency filth from walking into the country as and when they please. Pass very strong laws (death penalty if necessary) against those who steal national resources such as Oil and Government funds. Stop Iranian influence from continuing to dictate internal policy. Prevent the the Mullas and religious parties from entering the political process. Disband all Militias. Create an environment where the educated classes can return safely and use their experience and expertise to help re-build the country's infrastructure. Implement an open education policy and encourage graduates to stay in Iraq by paying them what they deserve. Attract foreign investment and award contracts to Western Companies using open/fair tendering system. Any foreign company working in Iraq must have a training policy whereby part of the terms & conditions of the tender requires training for Iraqis in order to educate/refresh local engineers knowledge of latest technical developments in their respective fields. The same would apply to doctors, scientists etc. Any foreign company opening offices in Iraq to employ 90% Iraqis to create jobs in the infrastructure sector. These are just off the top of my head but then again what do I know. Azinorum

Harry -> RE: Enough killing (1/2/2007 6:10:42 PM)
Dear Zeynab: It appears that you are a believer, a religious person, and I do have all the respect to you and your religion for that. However, I still think that you should tell us what the word “KAFER” means. “At least your interpretation of the word”. I am sure everyone knows these days that Islam is being used in the entire Middle Eastern region plus most parts of Asia, just to promote radical ideas and achieve the ultimate goal of profiting from it. About hating other Muslims, do you mean even if that person killed hundreds of thousands of people? I would hate anyone who does that regardless of who, or what he or she is, even if it was of my own flesh and blood. Previous Iraqi governments may not have used Islam as a front for their rulings, but Saddam used it for sure, all you have to do is watch his meetings, and listen to his speeches. Yet nowadays, Muslim clerics are using their influence to push their followers to commit so many unruly acts, it’s becoming disgustingly murderous. Instead of using religion to spread chaos, they could teach the true interpretation of the Qur’an to spread peace among Muslims. If they want to be a part of the parliament, they can use their education “provided they have any” to prove to their followers that they are worthy of the position they are seeking. Religion should never get involved in governing a country. Ruling a country through religious guidelines is the ultimate mistake that believers do. It could have worked centuries ago, but not in modern day governments. A country “any country” these days consists of various religions, ethnicities, and beliefs. Therefore, you cannot force one religion or one belief on all people living in that country, if you do that, you are actually forcing the rest of the factions to take one of many actions. Two of the options they have are 1) they could revolt, if their number is high enough to cause disturbance and unrest. Or 2) they might leave the country, taking all their knowledge and education with them to benefit the new land they settle in. Either way it is really a great setback to the religiously lead country. *My highest regards and respect to you.*

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