What happened to this forum? Seems like everyone just dissapeared overnight. In the meantime I'm posting the below letter written by Michael Moore (American director of Fahrenheit 9/11).
Sunday, November 26th, 2006
Friends,
Tomorrow marks the day that we will have been in Iraq longer than we were in all of World War II. That’s right. We were able to defeat all of Nazi Germany, Mussolini, and the entire Japanese empire in LESS time than it’s taken the world’s only superpower to secure the road from the airport to downtown Baghdad.
And we haven’t even done THAT. After 1,347 days, in the same time it took us to sweep across North Africa, storm the beaches of Italy, conquer the South Pacific, and liberate all of Western Europe, we cannot, after over 3 years, even take over a single highway and protect ourselves from a homemade device of two tin cans placed in a pothole. No wonder the cab fare from the airport into Baghdad is now running around $35,000 for the 25-minute ride. And that doesn’t even include a friggin’ helmet.
Is this utter failure the fault of our troops? Hardly. That’s because no amount of troops or choppers or democracy shot out of the barrel of a gun is ever going to “win” the war in Iraq. It is a lost war, lost because it never had a right to be won, lost because it was started by men who have never been to war, men who hide behind others sent to fight and die. Let’s listen to what the Iraqi people are saying, according to a recent poll conducted by the University of Maryland:
** 71% of all Iraqis now want the U.S. out of Iraq.
** 61% of all Iraqis SUPPORT insurgent attacks on U.S. troops.
Yes, the vast majority of Iraqi citizens believe that our soldiers should be killed and maimed! So what the hell are we still doing there? Talk about not getting the hint. There are many ways to liberate a country. Usually the residents of that country rise up and liberate themselves. That’s how we did it. You can also do it through nonviolent, mass civil disobedience. That’s how India did it. You can get the world to boycott a regime until they are so ostracized they capitulate. That’s how South Africa did it. Or you can just wait them out and, sooner or later, the king’s legions simply leave (sometimes just because they’re too cold). That’s how Canada did it.
The one way that DOESN’T work is to invade a country and tell the people, “We are here to liberate you!”—when they have done NOTHING to liberate themselves. Where were all the suicide bombers when Saddam was oppressing them? Where were the insurgents planting bombs along the roadside as the evildoer Saddam’s convoy passed them by? I guess ol’ Saddam was a cruel despot—but not cruel enough for thousands to risk their necks. “Oh no, Mike, they couldn’t do that! Saddam would have had them killed!” Really? You don’t think King George had any of the colonial insurgents killed? You don’t think Patrick Henry or Tom Paine were afraid? That didn’t stop them. When tens of thousands aren’t willing to shed their own blood to remove a dictator, that should be the first clue that they aren’t going to be willing participants when you decide you’re going to do the liberating for them.
A country can HELP another people overthrow a tyrant (that’s what the French did for us in our revolution), but after you help them, you leave. Immediately. The French didn’t stay and tell us how to set up our government. They didn’t say, “We’re not leaving because we want your natural resources.” They left us to our own devices and it took us six years before we had an election. And then we had a bloody civil war. That’s what happens, and history is full of these examples. The French didn’t say, “Oh, we better stay in America, otherwise they’re going to kill each other over that slavery issue!”
The only way a war of liberation has a chance of succeeding is if the oppressed people being liberated have their own citizens behind them—and a group of Washingtons, Jeffersons, Franklins, Ghandis and Mandellas leading them. Where are these beacons of liberty in Iraq? This is a joke and it’s been a joke since the beginning. Yes, the joke’s been on us, but with 655,000 Iraqis now dead as a result of our invasion (source: Johns Hopkins University), I guess the cruel joke is on them. At least they’ve been liberated, permanently.
So I don’t want to hear another word about sending more troops (wake up, America, John McCain is bonkers), or “redeploying” them, or waiting four months to begin the “phase-out.” There is only one solution and it is this: Leave. Now. Start tonight. Get out of there as fast as we can. As much as people of good heart and conscience don’t want to believe this, as much as it kills us to accept defeat, there is nothing we can do to undo the damage we have done. What’s happened has happened. If you were to drive drunk down the road and you killed a child, there would be nothing you could do to bring that child back to life. If you invade and destroy a country, plunging it into a civil war, there isn’t much you can do ‘til the smoke settles and blood is mopped up. Then maybe you can atone for the atrocity you have committed and help the living come back to a better life.
The Soviet Union got out of Afghanistan in 36 weeks. They did so and suffered hardly any losses as they left. They realized the mistake they had made and removed their troops. A civil war ensued. The bad guys won. Later, we overthrew the bad guys and everybody lived happily ever after. See! It all works out in the end!
The responsibility to end this war now falls upon the Democrats. Congress controls the purse strings and the Constitution says only Congress can declare war. Mr. Reid and Ms. Pelosi now hold the power to put an end to this madness. Failure to do so will bring the wrath of the voters. We aren’t kidding around, Democrats, and if you don’t believe us, just go ahead and continue this war another month. We will fight you harder than we did the Republicans. The opening page of my website has a photo of Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, each made up by a collage of photos of the American soldiers who have died in Bush’s War. But it is now about to become the Bush/Democratic Party War unless swift action is taken.
This is what we demand:
1. Bring the troops home now. Not six months from now. NOW. Quit looking for a way to win. We can’t win. We’ve lost. Sometimes you lose. This is one of those times. Be brave and admit it.
2. Apologize to our soldiers and make amends. Tell them we are sorry they were used to fight a war that had NOTHING to do with our national security. We must commit to taking care of them so that they suffer as little as possible. The mentally and physically maimed must get the best care and significant financial compensation. The families of the deceased deserve the biggest apology and they must be taken care of for the rest of their lives.
3. We must atone for the atrocity we have perpetuated on the people of Iraq. There are few evils worse than waging a war based on a lie, invading another country because you want what they have buried under the ground. Now many more will die. Their blood is on our hands, regardless for whom we voted. If you pay taxes, you have contributed to the three billion dollars a week now being spent to drive Iraq into the hellhole it’s become. When the civil war is over, we will have to help rebuild Iraq. We can receive no redemption until we have atoned.
In closing, there is one final thing I know. We Americans are better than what has been done in our name. A majority of us were upset and angry after 9/11 and we lost our minds. We didn’t think straight and we never looked at a map. Because we are kept stupid through our pathetic education system and our lazy media, we knew nothing of history. We didn’t know that WE were the ones funding and arming Saddam for many years, including those when he massacred the Kurds. He was our guy. We didn’t know what a Sunni or a Shiite was, never even heard the words. Eighty percent of our young adults (according to National Geographic) were not able to find Iraq on the map. Our leaders played off our stupidity, manipulated us with lies, and scared us to death.
But at our core we are a good people. We may be slow learners, but that “Mission Accomplished” banner struck us as odd, and soon we began to ask some questions. Then we began to get smart. By this past November 7th, we got mad and tried to right our wrongs. The majority now know the truth. The majority now feel a deep sadness and guilt and a hope that somehow we can make make it all right again.
Unfortunately, we can’t. So we will accept the consequences of our actions and do our best to be there should the Iraqi people ever dare to seek our help in the future. We ask for their forgiveness.
Well azinorum, I guess people are relizing that words are not a big help compared to action, so they decided to save their breaths. And this article you posted is a great example of the Selfishness of Americans. I had so much to say while I was reading it but now my heart is pounding and my hands are shaking and I feel like I've just forgot everything I was going to say. Anyhow, this article states "When the civil war is over, we will have to help rebuild Iraq." What does that tell the reader of this article?? Doesn't it tell you that after they've ignited the war they want to leave? They want to escape with their loathsome bodies?? And how it says that "They have to apology to the soliders and their families" And of course compensate them...well how about us? Who will apology to our people!!
Hi Zainab, welcome back. Perhaps words can’t do everything but they’re a pretty good way of getting rid of pent up frustration and we all have to endure plenty of that these days.
The good thing about Michael Moore is that he stirs things up amongst the Republican Elite in the States. He also was one the first to speak up against the Godfathers of US politics (Bush Snr & Jr) and used a very public forum (a movie that won an Oscar) to humiliate them. He has been against the Iraq War from the start and was never afraid to air his anti war views at a time when the rest of the country was conned by their government into supporting their “boys in the Gulf”. He also ends his letter with a very nice sentence:
“So we will accept the consequences of our actions and do our best to be there should the Iraqi people ever dare to seek our help in the future. We ask for their forgiveness”.
In any case if you haven’t seen it already I’d advise you rent a copy of Fahrenheit 9/11. It probably won’t tell you anything new but it sure is fun seeing “GWB snr and jr” have to take a bit of their own medicine for a change. Jr is of course the star of the show and manages to transform looking stupid into an art form. Regards Azinorum
Thanx Azinorum. Well even if the Americans are really trying to get out of Iraq no one is letting them do so. Every now and then we see one of the traitors that are in charge now goes to the USA and asks them to stay there. And this is happening eveery day. They are holding on to them, they feel that they are worthless without the American troops(they are worthless ever since we knew them). Lately its been the hypocrit..Al hakem. Pleading for them to stay. There seems to be no solution
Thanx Azinorum. Well even if the Americans are really trying to get out of Iraq no one is letting them do so. Every now and then we see one of the traitors that are in charge now goes to the USA and asks them to stay there. And this is happening eveery day. They are holding on to them, they feel that they are worthless without the American troops(they are worthless ever since we knew them). Lately its been the hypocrit..Al hakem. Pleading for them to stay. There seems to be no solution
What would happen if the US would withdraw? What do you think Zeynab? Do you think everything would be ok or what?
Thanx Azinorum. Well even if the Americans are really trying to get out of Iraq no one is letting them do so. Every now and then we see one of the traitors that are in charge now goes to the USA and asks them to stay there. And this is happening eveery day. They are holding on to them, they feel that they are worthless without the American troops(they are worthless ever since we knew them). Lately its been the hypocrit..Al hakem. Pleading for them to stay. There seems to be no solution
Yes, the situation is very depressing. Everyone pretends to want the best for Iraq but are robbing it blind behind the scenes. The Americans are trying to do a u-turn as fast as possible to salvage some kind of legacy for GWB. Of course there is no chance that he will be remembered for anything other than ruining Iraq, plunging the Middle East into chaos and looking masterfully dumb when standing on podiums (and any where else for that matter). I would put him forward as an excellent candidate for the "worst president in US history" award. Don't think he'll have much problem winning that one! Regards Azinorum
Well Jukka I don't think it matters anymore if they stay or leave. Its already very bad and it could get worse. We have nothing to do but watch with our eyes. Sometimes I feel very sad about how I am not part of whatever is happening and I wish I was there. I don't want to be there to oppose anyone or be on anyone's side...but just to be there and witness whats happening...and if my family dies I want to die with them...not just watch them die while am far away.
Well Jukka I don't think it matters anymore if they stay or leave. Its already very bad and it could get worse. We have nothing to do but watch with our eyes. Sometimes I feel very sad about how I am not part of whatever is happening and I wish I was there. I don't want to be there to oppose anyone or be on anyone's side...but just to be there and witness whats happening...and if my family dies I want to die with them...not just watch them die while am far away.
Theres lots you can do. You can give money to the political party you support in Iraq. You could go to Iraq to help it to survive. Youre probably an educated person anyway.
If there werent so many idiots in Iraq blowing bombs everything would be a lot better and the country wouldnt be falling apart. Instead there are these lunatics who want to make war at the expense of their own country. Even on this forum there are these fanatics preaching hatred and aggression. They dont understand that theyre destroying their own country.
When the terrorists bombed the holy shrine (al aksari or what was it?) people started to wage even greater war against other ethnic groups. I think this is like rewarding the terrorists for destroying the mosque. Why dont people understand this? Are they idiots?
There are too many idiots in Iraq blowing up bombs. Thats why the country is disintegrating. If you look at Kurdistan they are doing pretty well because there are not so many bomberidiots living there.
JUKKA first there is no such thing as kurdistan it is all big lie and also the kurds are big thiefs taking the land that it is not there's and also why there is no bombs in this because america simply are protecting them those big thiefs kurds so please JUKKA DO NOT BE NAIVE AND DUMP.
Well Jukka, first of all I don't support any of those theifs that say they are trying to settle what ever is going on in Iraq..all the political parties. Each one of them is trying to take the best for himself. I'd rather give money to people that need it more than them...to the orphans that the war has left behind or to the people that are left without homes or to the people that have no food to eat ..simply because they don't have any jobs. And second of all, that's what I meant when I said all we can do is watch with our eyes its because we really don't know who on earth is doing those bombings. And by the way northern Iraq is not facing those bombings because most of its inhabitants are Kurds..so whats the point of the bombings?? In the other parts of Iraq its ok for them to bomb and blam it on shiaa at one point or sunnah at another. And I do agree that they are idiots no matter who they are. What would motivate a person to do such immoral acts??
Sadiq 2006: Although I don’t always see eye to eye with Mr. Angry who frequently goes red faced and shouts down any pro Kurdistan posts. On this occasion I agree with him. The Kurds have stability simply because they’ve had over 15 years to achieve this and were strongly supported by the US who used the region as a safe zone in Iraq while preparing for the invasion. Also the Kurds couldn’t believe their luck as it gave them the opportunity to grab sovereignty and set up the foundations for their real goal; to split from the rest of Iraq and set up their own country. Like you I don’t agree with partitioning the country and like you I don’t think the Kurds have a right to do so but unfortunately they are well on their way.
Mr. Jukka: You continue to astound me with your intelligent reasoning and conclusions and I quote:
You could go to Iraq to help it to survive. Youre probably an educated person anyway. Many people would like to go back to Iraq. Many have had to leave friends and family behind to seek a better life outside the country. But all would go back in a heartbeat if they felt they could give their loved ones a safe environment to grow up in. You have to understand that as Iraqis, we have been through nothing but wars and sanctions for the past 27 years and feel betrayed by the promises made by Bush, Blair, Alawi, Jaffari and now Mr. Maliki. Many have lost hope and don’t want to lose yet another generation of young men and women who have already been isolated by the events of the past 3 decades. We need to just breathe again.
If there werent so many idiots in Iraq blowing bombs everything would be a lot better and the country wouldnt be falling apart. A gold star for figuring that out all by yourself.
“There are too many idiots in Iraq blowing up bombs. That’s why the country is disintegrating”. I’m afraid it’s a little bit more complicated than that.
“Why don’t people understand this? Are they idiots?” No, they’re not IDIOTS!! They understand very well but it's somewhat difficult to argue with Militias who are carrying RPG’s and aiming them at your head.
"You can give money to the political party you support in Iraq". Giving money to the party you support is a nice notion but which party? Don’t you see all these so called parties are not exactly ready to take charge of a country with so much wealth and strategic power? It’s not like in Europe where all the money is accounted for. The whole thing is a sham.
Could I ask where youre from? Perhaps it might explain why you have such a simplistic view on the events in Iraq. Regards. Azinorum
AZINORUM you want to know from where i am?, well simply i am first american citizen from the united states of america living in the UAE this country UAE is a wonderful country and thank you for asking.
So you are an Iraqi with US citizenship living in the UAE. Just out of interest, why do you hate the Kurds so much? I know you will tell me that there is no such place as Kurdistan and Iraq is the original Mesopotamia etc, etc. But I think your hatred runs deeper than that.
I don’t have anything against the Kurds per say but cannot abide by the way they treat their Arab cousins. They refuse to teach Arabic in their schools, refuse to fly the Iraqi flag despite pretending to want Iraq to stay unified and live under a corrupt government ruled by 2 tribes who have a piece of every business transaction that goes through the North (sound familiar?). They had an opportunity to illustrate the real meaning of unity and brotherhood by showing the world that they truly wish for a unified Iraq. Instead all the pictures, news reports coming from Kurdistan after the fall of Baghdad and the recent elections showed the Kurdish populace waving only Kurdish flags. There were no Iraqi flags in sight. This disgusted me nearly as much as seeing the Hawasin looting the Ministries. Regards. Azinorum
first AZINORUM i said and read very carefully I AM AN AMERICAN CITIZEN FROM THE USA (LIVING IN THE UAE) READ VERY CAREFULLY AND ALSO SINCE WHEN THE KURDS THOSE MOUNTAIN HAVE A CRAZY FLAG AND DETIRMING THAT THE NORTH MESOPOTAMIA ARE THERES DON'T YOU READ HISTORY THEY MANY BAD THINGS IN THE OTOMAN EMPIRE AND KILLED MANY MESOPOTAMIANS AND ARMENIANS WITH THE HELP OF THE DISCUSTING OTOMANS AND FAKING THE HISTORY, DO NOT BE SUCH NAIVE AND DUMP.
OK Mr. Angry, keep your knickers on. So you are saying that you are not originally from Iraq, that you are an American citizen (and obviously proud of it) and live in the UAE. That Kurds have a crazy flag, live in the mountains, fake history, blah, blah, blah.
So now explain this; for someone who claims to be an American why is it that you can’t spell, never punctuate your sentences and love to repeat yourself. Hold on….your an American so that already explains it. By the way, dumb is spelt with a “d” not “p”. LOL
So very elequent and articulate the words just drip off your tongue. You are a true master of your craft. Can’t wait to read your next informative post.
< Message edited by azinorum -- 12/11/2006 4:39:21 PM >
OH PLEASE THE KURDS HAVE 15 YEARS OF FREEDOM FROM A LAND THAT IT IS NOT THERE'S DIDN'T I TOLD YOU NOT TO BE FOOLISH AND FAKING THE HISTORY , THE KURDS INTENDED ALL ALONG TO KILL MORE IRAQIS AND KICK THE ORIGINAL NATIVE PEOPLE IN IRBIL AND SULAIMANIA AND KARKUK AND CLAIMING THAT IT IS THEIR LAND DO NOT BE STUPID, OH AND BY THE WAY IRBIL AND SULAIMANIA AND KARKUK AND DAHUK AND ALL MESOPOTAMIA IS IRAQ (IRAQI CITIES) AND NEVER WILL BE KURDS CITIES SO PLEASE FOLLING YOURSELF RESPECT YOURSELF.
“Why should the kurds wave Iraqi flags, since it was Saddam who gased them? Its like a jew waving a nazi flag, the one with the swastika. Thats crazy.”
It’s important to at least know a little about a subject before submitting a post don’t you think? It wasn’t the Iraqis that gassed the Kurds. It was Saddam and his Baath Party and the chemicals used were supplied by American Companies. The Iraqi flag belongs to its people, not to a particular political party. The current version with the Allah Akbar was introduced in 1991 but the basic stripes, of red, white, and black with three green stars has been Iraq’s flag since 1963.
"I think the current Iraqi flag will be replaced soon, because it is a symbol of evil dictatorship to many people living inside Iraq".
What’s the flag got to do with it?
"I dont understand why this is such an issue to you people".
Hey my friend Sadiq, do not call Azinorum naive and crazy, no way! of course i now see... this was written a tad back in x. just happened upon it, seem to be doing these "strange" things more and more, again PRAISE GOD!!! All glory, power and praise to HIM!!! hope u r doing well Sadiq. i see that these family disagreements happened many moons back.
OH Sadiq, from my past exp with Azinorum he does NOT pull a Geo. Orwell act from his book, 1984.
< Message edited by YellowSunshine -- 7/26/2007 1:38:04 PM >
_____________________________
Faith, Hope and Love, the Greatest of these is LOVE!!!
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell
yes it is an issue and also i not sure that saddam hussain who gased because i believe it is iran who did this and b y the help of masood barazani and jalal talibani of their crazy stupid politics and their black history just to the thrown of iraq and to create diversion and confusion in iraq to steal more money.
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RE: Ghost town?? - 
JUKKA first there is no such thing as kurdistan it is all big lie and also the kurds are big thiefs taking the land that it is not there's and also why there is no bombs in this because america simply are protecting them those big thiefs kurds so please JUKKA DO NOT BE NAIVE AND DUMP.
AZINORUM you want to know from where i am?, well simply i am first american citizen from the united states of america living in the UAE this country UAE is a wonderful country and thank you for asking.
first AZINORUM i said and read very carefully I AM AN AMERICAN CITIZEN FROM THE USA (LIVING IN THE UAE) READ VERY CAREFULLY AND ALSO SINCE WHEN THE KURDS THOSE MOUNTAIN HAVE A CRAZY FLAG AND DETIRMING THAT THE NORTH MESOPOTAMIA ARE THERES DON'T YOU READ HISTORY THEY MANY BAD THINGS IN THE OTOMAN EMPIRE AND KILLED MANY MESOPOTAMIANS AND ARMENIANS WITH THE HELP OF THE DISCUSTING OTOMANS AND FAKING THE HISTORY, DO NOT BE SUCH NAIVE AND DUMP.
You are a true master of your craft. 
RE: Ghost town?? - 
RE: Ghost town?? - 
just quoted one of his books today my friend, hope u r well... 
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