Of course Israel has a right to exist. There are regimes a million times worse than Israel and who have occupied far more foreign land by brutal force (e.g. Turkey), but no one in their right mind would demand that these states cease to exist. Thats just lunacy. Why punish Israeli citizens for being born (which is a biogeographical accident) into a state that their forefathers created? Imagine if you were accidentally born and raised into Israel, this is where your life is and the whole world wishes for you not to exist. This is not justice, this is revenge.
Now that I have covered that, let me also say that Israel as a military entity is not angelic by any means. They are cruel, very arrogant, and colonial in their outlook (their settlement expansion is just a crime against humanity). And worse of all, this is done in the name of a religious lie. The concept of any sort of religious state is just stupid. No rational person, ever, would find anything positive to say about the proposition that your political rights are granted to you on the basis of what belief system you're born into or who your ancestors accidentally happen to be. This is idiocy beyond understanding.
If anything has negatively contributed to this conflict, then its definitely been the religious factor.
Of course Israel has a right to exist. There are regimes a million times worse than Israel and who have occupied far more foreign land by brutal force (e.g. Turkey), but no one in their right mind would demand that these states cease to exist. Thats just lunacy. Why punish Israeli citizens for being born (which is a biogeographical accident) into a state that their forefathers created? Imagine if you were accidentally born and raised into Israel, this is where your life is and the whole world wishes for you not to exist. This is not justice, this is revenge.
I am afraid I don't agree with your point of view. States like Turkey,Iraq,Iran,China ...etc have not kicked out their ethnic people then occupied their land village by village. I believe you are mixing up between occupation and minority oppression...
Israel is an exact copy of any western invasion.It was the last in the list that started with invasion of the American continents then Africa/Australia...etc.
The association of israel with jewish religion is just a pretext and accidental. Oriental jews for example are oppressed in Israel.
On the other hand all western nations and western people look to israel with a bond- It is that western cultural bond.
The israeli occupation is also seen by the west as the fighting field against muslim culture(irrespective of actual religious belief). It is the point where they want their culture to clash agaist a strong islamic culture.
I don't see how israel has the right to kick people out. If so we all have to believe in kick-outs for the strongest.
The existence of israel is very very odd in that part of the world. It looks very much like the most important US state planted in the heart of muslim land.
The arrogance and criminal nature of israelis was best exemplified during their attack on Gaza. They all were unashamed in front of the whole world of what they were doing. Their hardcore criminals are really psychopathic and must be irradicated from the face of earth.
One Gaza scene that I keep getting its flashbacks is this:
An arab doctor working for an israeli TV lost three of his daughters in their home in Gaza. He was based in TelEviv(I believe) and the TV showed the doctor in a state of shock having heard the news. A woman in the scene(apparently a "work colleague" was also shown but shouting at the shocked doctor telling him that his daughters were terrorsits hiding bombs and attacking soldiers... this woman surely is the most wicked creature you can ever imagine.
Of course Israel has a right to exist. There are regimes a million times worse than Israel and who have occupied far more foreign land by brutal force (e.g. Turkey), but no one in their right mind would demand that these states cease to exist. Thats just lunacy. Why punish Israeli citizens for being born (which is a biogeographical accident) into a state that their forefathers created? Imagine if you were accidentally born and raised into Israel, this is where your life is and the whole world wishes for you not to exist. This is not justice, this is revenge.
I am afraid I don't agree with your point of view. States like Turkey,Iraq,Iran,China ...etc have not kicked out their ethnic people then occupied their land village by village. I believe you are mixing up between occupation and minority oppression...
Israel is an exact copy of any western invasion.It was the last in the list that started with invasion of the American continents then Africa/Australia...etc.
The association of israel with jewish religion is just a pretext and accidental. Oriental jews for example are oppressed in Israel.
On the other hand all western nations and western people look to israel with a bond- It is that western cultural bond.
The israeli occupation is also seen by the west as the fighting field against muslim culture(irrespective of actual religious belief). It is the point where they want their culture to clash agaist a strong islamic culture.
I don't see how israel has the right to kick people out. If so we all have to believe in kick-outs for the strongest.
The existence of israel is very very odd in that part of the world. It looks very much like the most important US state planted in the heart of muslim land.
The arrogance and criminal nature of israelis was best exemplified during their attack on Gaza. They all were unashamed in front of the whole world of what they were doing. Their hardcore criminals are really psychopathic and must be irradicated from the face of earth.
One Gaza scene that I keep getting its flashbacks is this:
An arab doctor working for an israeli TV lost three of his daughters in their home in Gaza. He was based in TelEviv(I believe) and the TV showed the doctor in a state of shock having heard the news. A woman in the scene(apparently a "work colleague" was also shown but shouting at the shocked doctor telling him that his daughters were terrorsits hiding bombs and attacking soldiers... this woman surely is the most wicked creature you can ever imagine.
Southeastern Turkey is stolen land from the natives who were there 100 years ago. Just look at the names of those cities which are non-Turkish in origin, and you will see my point. I have spoken to people whose grandparents lost their homes to the Turks a century ago in the very same way Palestinians did with Israel and today the inhabitants of those stolen villages are descendants of the oppressors (we're talking about Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, etc. which is why Turkey is worse than Israel in my opinion, since their territorial thievery has devastated several ethnic communities). These victims became refugees, fled, never got their land back, Turkey geopolitically grew, and the only eyewitness we have to this day is history since no one wants to make as big of a deal about it as they have with Palestine.
I'm not personally accusing you of anything, but generally speaking the above attempt to differentiate something like the foundation of Turkey from that of Israel is a perfect example of how Muslims will seize any opportunity to decry occupation, but when their own do it all of the sudden they're so concerned with looking for technical differences so as to morally elevate their cause above others. Their cause is so special that it cannot be compared to anyone else's. As long as the spotlight is on Israel, they're not interested in such specific differential contingencies. When its about Israel, its simple and uncomplicated occupation and oppression, anyone who complicates it is an apologist for zionist oppression, but when it is Muslim governments doing the same then all of the sudden its become a complicated situation which requires all this differential analysis so as to not make it such an overly-simplistic black and white issue. Come on, I'm sorry, this is just professional hypocrisy. If you wish not to be appear inconsistent, then you ought to embrace other victims of occupation, rather than minimize them through the same claims of apologism you charge against the zionists.
I mean, do you really think Israel is the only country which has ever occupied land? Lets say for the sake of argument that I'm totally uneducated about Turkey. But for the sake of probability, do you honestly think occupiers have never existed in the past 200 years or 100 years? If you think so, then that is really giving too much credit to Israel (and thinking to highly of one's self) and essentially arguing that the colonial mechanism of occupation never existed before 1948, which is a pretty loaded claim.
America is occupied land, so is Australia. But you cannot just undo generations of evolved social structures. You cannot just ask communities, out of thin air, to 'not exist' because of what their ancestors did. Native Americans cannot just ask every white American of European ancestry to leave because their colonial ancestors were inhumane barbarians.
Yes it does, Isreal has the right to defend herself by any means possible, Isreal sets among the most dangerous, vile, wicked countries in the world, I think Isreal should take all the Land God gave her. Jordan, Iraq, lebanon, palestine etc Got tak it back Isreal, God gave it to you, the land that flows with milk and honey. You will someday get it back and none of these countries will beable to stop it. You can't stop God. LONG LIVE ISREAL AND MAY SHE CLAIM THE LAND GOD GAVE HER.
In other words, Palestinians have no right to exist, and defend their own land from being pulled from underneath them unjustly.
God never promised anything to the Israelis. God put all humans on earth to live equally, not by massacring others according to some bullshit lies your ancestors wrote to satisfy their own greed.
_____________________________
Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.
Yes it does, Isreal has the right to defend herself by any means possible, Isreal sets among the most dangerous, vile, wicked countries in the world, I think Isreal should take all the Land God gave her. Jordan, Iraq, lebanon, palestine etc Got tak it back Isreal, God gave it to you, the land that flows with milk and honey. You will someday get it back and none of these countries will beable to stop it. You can't stop God. LONG LIVE ISREAL AND MAY SHE CLAIM THE LAND GOD GAVE HER.
I don't think God gave this land to Israelis because it is the land of milk and honey. God gave them this land to punish them. This is not the land of milk and honey, this is the land of hostility, insecurity, death, terror, hatred......etc.
Yes it does, Isreal has the right to defend herself by any means possible, Isreal sets among the most dangerous, vile, wicked countries in the world, I think Isreal should take all the Land God gave her. Jordan, Iraq, lebanon, palestine etc Got tak it back Isreal, God gave it to you, the land that flows with milk and honey. You will someday get it back and none of these countries will beable to stop it. You can't stop God. LONG LIVE ISREAL AND MAY SHE CLAIM THE LAND GOD GAVE HER.
Yeah, just kick out millions and millions and millions of people (let alone Palestinians) just because you claim God said so.
You are the Judeo-Christian version of the taliban.
Yes it does, Isreal has the right to defend herself by any means possible, Isreal sets among the most dangerous, vile, wicked countries in the world, I think Isreal should take all the Land God gave her. Jordan, Iraq, lebanon, palestine etc Got tak it back Isreal, God gave it to you, the land that flows with milk and honey. You will someday get it back and none of these countries will beable to stop it. You can't stop God. LONG LIVE ISREAL AND MAY SHE CLAIM THE LAND GOD GAVE HER.
Typical example of the evil mythical mind of many fanatics, blame it all on God. Typical example of zionist hypocracy and evil mentality, blame it all on that mystery God. All your crimes and evil deeds are blessed by your God.
And typical example of bias and arrogant zionist filthy mind, all countries around you are evil people wicked and dangerous. The whole humanity knows how dangerous the zionist movement was and is to the whole world not just palestine.
I have full sympathy to jewish people and highy respect their scientific role in human history. My thoughts are with the oriental jews who were lured into israel then treated with discrimination.
Here I am talking against the criminal zionist gang that claims to represent them. The state of israel is the only state in the world to commit highjacks(Ocalan) or seajacks(russian ship), bundle people in boxes into israel(your own citizen), murder from air in Lebanon or Gaza(every day), send assassins all over world. yet claim democracy, ...insane that this state may have nuclear weapons to defend its evil existence. The whole region is in danger now from this odd gang of the worst of western zionist thugs. It wouldn't be long when all the people around you will become hizbollah destroying your tanks and ships and sending you back to your countries.
Southeastern Turkey is stolen land from the natives who were there 100 years ago. Just look at the names of those cities which are non-Turkish in origin, and you will see my point. I have spoken to people whose grandparents lost their homes to the Turks a century ago in the very same way Palestinians did with Israel and today the inhabitants of those stolen villages are descendants of the oppressors (we're talking about Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, etc. which is why Turkey is worse than Israel in my opinion, since their territorial thievery has devastated several ethnic communities). These victims became refugees, fled, never got their land back, Turkey geopolitically grew, and the only eyewitness we have to this day is history since no one wants to make as big of a deal about it as they have with Palestine.
I'm not personally accusing you of anything, but generally speaking the above attempt to differentiate something like the foundation of Turkey from that of Israel is a perfect example of how Muslims will seize any opportunity to decry occupation, but when their own do it all of the sudden they're so concerned with looking for technical differences so as to morally elevate their cause above others. Their cause is so special that it cannot be compared to anyone else's. As long as the spotlight is on Israel, they're not interested in such specific differential contingencies. When its about Israel, its simple and uncomplicated occupation and oppression, anyone who complicates it is an apologist for zionist oppression, but when it is Muslim governments doing the same then all of the sudden its become a complicated situation which requires all this differential analysis so as to not make it such an overly-simplistic black and white issue. Come on, I'm sorry, this is just professional hypocrisy. If you wish not to be appear inconsistent, then you ought to embrace other victims of occupation, rather than minimize them through the same claims of apologism you charge against the zionists.
I mean, do you really think Israel is the only country which has ever occupied land? Lets say for the sake of argument that I'm totally uneducated about Turkey. But for the sake of probability, do you honestly think occupiers have never existed in the past 200 years or 100 years? If you think so, then that is really giving too much credit to Israel (and thinking to highly of one's self) and essentially arguing that the colonial mechanism of occupation never existed before 1948, which is a pretty loaded claim.
I agree that Muslims and arabs in particular tend to have double standards, so does everybody else and unfortunately it looks like this is inherent in human being. I can see another vivid example:
The anfal operations of Iraq were never condemned by any muslim at the time claiming fear from the regime of Baghdad, yet after american occupation, the whole muslims suddenly became anti-US heros and even suicidal "in the name of islam".
This attitude has seriously undermined their morality in the eyes of others.
Turkey commited masacres and the muslims must acknowledge it and condemn it at least. However, two crimes don't cancel out. Moreover, Israel's occupation was distinct historically, it started with massacres then destruction of homes and towns, killing and kicking people out in a dramatic way and leading to the establishment of a state controlled by western loyals and fully embraced by the west . The palestinians were put in graves or in refugee camps.
Israel was supported by the brutal force of the whole world against defenseless but proud people when all arabs were ruled by traitors(and until now).
The resistance to occupation took also the cultural clash dimension(west Vs islam) from both sides and this clash never stopped until this day. We cannot deny this west Vs islam dimension. It is true from the perspective of both sides. Muslims cannot forget the brutality of israelis or accept the humiliating nature of their conduct or their persistent threats and attacks both inside and outside.
quote:
America is occupied land, so is Australia. But you cannot just undo generations of evolved social structures. You cannot just ask communities, out of thin air, to 'not exist' because of what their ancestors did. Native Americans cannot just ask every white American of European ancestry to leave because their colonial ancestors were inhumane barbarians.
You can't also undo the pride of millions of refugees scattered all around the world. Or forget the victims in graves. You can't also be unwise and accept a brutal strong enemy next door to you.
The solution is mutual respect, equality, justice and that long list of wishful thinking. The final solution might be nothing but force...
Turkey commited masacres and the muslims must acknowledge it and condemn it at least. However, two crimes don't cancel out.
And yet they dont and have no problem cuddling with Turkey.
quote:
Moreover, Israel's occupation was distinct historically, it started with massacres then destruction of homes and towns, killing and kicking people out in a dramatic way and leading to the establishment of a state controlled by western loyals and fully embraced by the west .
There is nothing distinct about this. Turkey has done all of this. Today they are supported by the west.
There was no Balfour declaration on their behalf, but even if there wasn't one on the behalf of Israel, for instance, would that then all of the sudden make them better in your eyes? Of course not.
quote:
You are against the occupation and oppression of native people, which is a crime Turkey is guilty of as well but no one wishes them out of existence by brute force.
The palestinians were put in graves or in refugee camps.
Israel was supported by the brutal force of the whole world against defenseless but proud people when all arabs were ruled by traitors(and until now).
Have you even read about what the Turks did to the poor Armenians and Assyrians, before kicking them out of their homes and robbing their land?
quote:
The resistance to occupation took also the cultural clash dimension(west Vs islam) from both sides and this clash never stopped until this day. We cannot deny this west Vs islam dimension. It is true from the perspective of both sides. Muslims cannot forget the brutality of israelis or accept the humiliating nature of their conduct or their persistent threats and attacks both inside and outside.
I will concede to the moral bankruptcy of occupation and colonialism, but I don't believe in any of this 'west versus Islam' fiction. I believe this is mostly Arab-Muslim ego. The west has generally been greedy when it came to the spoils of war, but this was not unique to Muslims and Arabs only, many nations have been plundered by the west. But it had nothing to do with the west being against this or that religion and for this reason I don't find it credible that they have some personal agenda against Islam.
quote:
You can't also undo the pride of millions of refugees scattered all around the world.
I never said you can. I said we have to deal and adapt to what exists now. You cannot undo history. I wish those Palestinians didn't become refugees, I wish those Christians in Turkey didn't become refugees, but I cannot go to southeastern Turkey and ask all those Turks to just go out of existence. I cannot punish you for what your forefathers did to my forefathers (and consequently me).
As you said, two wrongs don't make the right.
quote:
Or forget the victims in graves. You can't also be unwise and accept a brutal strong enemy next door to you.
Once again, I never said you can. I will reiterate Turkey's contribution to this point. Clearly they have no problem using military force to suppress those who threaten their autonomy (e.g. Kurds). They have no problem dropping bombs to send their message for the very same reasons Israel does (i.e. 'protecting the state from terrorist sabotage'). The only difference is we're so use to Turkish propaganda inasmuch as people are use to Israeli propaganda, that we never took a moment to realize the double standard.
quote:
The solution is mutual respect, equality, justice and that long list of wishful thinking. The final solution might be nothing but force...
Okay, then I'm simply asking you to be consistent. Let us use force against all occupiers and oppressors, whether they be Turkey or Israel. There are many angry victims of Turkish occupation, don't think that just because they decided not to resort to killing innocent Turkish citizens via bombs, that somehow they accept their humiliation by the Turkish government (with the exception of the Kurds). I have Greek friends who always ask me why no one stands up against Turkey (militarily) after the latter devastated the former, in much the same way people stand up to Israel (I have some friends who bloody hate the Turks in the same zealous, unjustified way Arabs hate Israelis).
Of course, the realistic answer here is that you cannot punish an entire population for what their ancestors did. Muslims themselves understand this when it comes to America, Turkey, whoever. But when it comes to Israel, there always seems to be that little extra bit of resentment, that surplus of hatred. Why? As I have proven, Israel - in terms of brutality - is quite comparable to other nations (if not less brutal). It seems to me if there is no other reason to justify this hatred, it must have something to do with the Jews. My mother's home was stolen from the Ba'athists and her entire family had to flee Iraq (and for the record, no one outranks the Ba'athists when it comes to human atrocity). But not even my mother in her right mind would call it 'justice' to kick out Iraqi Sunnis from their homes just because their grandfather was a Ba'athist. After the war, many Sunni families were being kicked out of homes (by militias) that were stolen decades ago from Iraqis who went into exile. But who would punish the children or family for politics unrelated to them? Perhaps Iraq isn't the best example, but you know there are others and I have mentioned a few (e.g. Turkey).
I will repeat: you do not punish someone for the sins of the father. You just can't. That's not justice. If you call it justice, then you have already lost the moral ground and the argument altogether. I mean, this should be self evident. I know you understand this logic in every case not dissimilar from Israel, but make that exception to Israel, for some arbitrary and rationally unstated reason.
< Message edited by Proton -- 9/30/2009 7:33:53 PM >
OK, so after the 200th anniversary of Darwin {birthday or whatever} I’ve rediscovered some things about evolutions.
Darwin did not come up with the term “survival of the fittest”. Someone else did after reading Darwin’s writings.
Darwin adopted the term, for a while, but it sat uneasy with him and he eventually discarded it.
What he used instead is not nearly as catchy but more accurately reflects what he believed.
Evolution worked because those organism’s who adapted to changing conditions first with the best, most appropriate response were going to be the survivors, regardless of how fit they are. The dinosaurs were the most efficient killing machines around. Big, strong, fast. But their species did not evolve in ways that helped them adapt to cooler climate. They did not adapt.
A weight lifter friend of mine is now a quadriplegic with most of his internal organs in compromised condition. While extremely fit, he did not come through the motorcycle accident very well. Another friend, a slim, small couch potato is doing just fine after his motorcycle accident. He was wearing helmet, he rolled with the flow of the accident, my extremely strong friend went end over end. The fittest rarely are the best survivors. Those who adapt to change are.
My father-in-law was a government functionary in pre WWII Lithuania. When the Germans and then Russians invaded he fled. He immigrated to the US. He then spent 55 years trying to recreate a memory of what was his homeland, a memory ever dwindling in scope, depth, and reality. He did not die unhappy. But he died being known as a displaced person waiting the reopening of his homeland.
His sister, a person of similar pre war circumstance emigrated to Canada and threw herself into becoming Canadian. I do not know that she died happy, but she did die fulfilled, having moved on, embracing a culture that she influenced and thrived in.
Iraq will not return to a utopian past from where it is now. It can return to greatness by advantaging itself of the help that lies waiting from the majority of the world sympathetic to it’s cause. The likelihood of that future looking anything like the past is remote – but it can be a beautiful thing to behold, and particularly if Iraqi’s build upon their dreams.
We will not get there while Iraq is occupied by foreign terrorists with an agenda that uses Iraq to its disadvantage. We will probably not get there while Iraq is occupied by foreign forces – whether invited or not, and whether they are well intentioned or not.
We will not get there while we piss away our precious resources deciding factional disputes within Iraq. And most important we will not get there until Iraqi’s publish their own vision of the future. We cannot force the present to adapt to our desires and preconceptions.
Darwin did not come up with the term “survival of the fittest”. Someone else did after reading Darwin’s writings.
'The fittest' in this case doesn't mean necessarily ' A healthy physical fitness and power'. Simply it means fit to surival, which includes correct behaviour to contribute to your survival. This correct behaviour includes the ability to adapt. That is 'fit' in this case includes any thing helps survival. This includes, strength, cunning, experience, image, adaptation.....etc.
Main Page
Log In
Register
Help/FAQ
Ticket List
Printable Version
RE: Does Israel have a right to exist? - 
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread