Havent been here long at at all but from the people I have met they have all been very nice. I have not ventured out of the FOB yet to Mosul but I would expect for the most part would be the same. Maybe I am wrong and probably am. I wish there were someway to reverse all the horrible things that have happened here. I wonder if the Iraqi people feel as if the American people and Military shouldnt be here at all. And then i wonder if the Iraqi people feel as if the American Military soldiers and marines all have the same outlook about them. I am a soldier but i am here to do good and get out. I want nothing more than to help the Iraqi people in anyway I can and to leave your country with a smile and maybe a few friends to keep in touch with when I am gone. Anyway, have a nice day everyone and take care.
With all respect I can't think of a single country that actually appreciate having foreign soldiers on their soil unless directly asked by the population itself. As far as I know Iraqis never asked for anyone to settle down in their country to "help" them.
The intention of soldiers can be very good, even if the objective of the occupation or the war itself is bad many soldiers might have truly good intention and might actually do good things. But it doesn't change the fact, nobody want an uninvited guest at their doorstep. I'm pretty sure you Americans wouldn't be too happy if foreign soldiers arrived on your soil to hand out candy to kids or whatever they would do that seems or is good.
An example would be the Japanese soldiers that were stationed in Iraq a few years ago. As far as I know not one shot was fired from their troops, instead they helped rebuild roadways, schools, buidlings etc. Was it good of them to do? Absolutely, does that mean that the locals accepted them and wanted them? Not at all, they weren't asked if they wanted Japanese troops stationed in their city, let alone help from them (or any other foreign occupational force). Thus it lead to protests against Japanese soldiers by the locals in the city a few times.
The amount of affect one soldier can do might not be much, two soldiers might not be that much..10 is a bit more...100 is even more and 1000 is even more than that and so on. Now if you add the amount of U.S soldiers in Iraq AND all non-U.S soldiers its quite many in a country they weren't invited in or wanted in to begin with.
Even if all those soldiers were to do nothing more then nation building, with such a large force settled in Iraq and taking care of vital parts of the society this will affect many things, cultural values, beliefs, traditions, culture itself, language, the way we live and in fact the very core system of the society itself. This is quite evident by the British influence in Iraq or even better example would be Japan or South Korea who are highly westernized most likely due to the U.S occupation of these countries (whether its good or bad for them is another topic). This very problem piss of even more Iraqis and the fact that U.S soldiers has at many points disregarded Iraqi lives and disrespected the country and culture, much like the enemy they claim to be fighting in their "operations", just adds more fuel to the fire.
Besides even if U.S and foreign troops were to pull out completely as promised (which will never happen, at least not a complete withdrawal) the fact that the U.S built such a large embassy in Baghdad is just a perfect sign of DIRECTLY saying that we are under occupation. Remember also that the U.S has basically backstabbed Iraq over a course of 60+ years and that Middle Easterners and Americans have a pretty bad relation at the moment (which is due to more then one reason) and yeah..you have one giant clusterf***** as you can see.
I can't blame these problems on you exactly as you are just one of many individual soldier and I'm pretty sure it wasn't your ideas to invade Iraq. You might be a good guy, one with good intentions...however, no offense meant but I hate foreign soldiers in my country, not only you U.S soldiers but soldiers of any nationality, ethnicity and belief. My focus goes mostly to American troops beacuse you are the largest force in the country, the main aggressors, the ones who played the most vital part in the invasion and occupation, its your war and occupation. You (or other) might think why I don't put just as much focus on terrorists who also hurted the Iraqi popuatlion to a great deal but the simple fact is that except a small amount of insane madmen I don't see people supporting these barbarians at all and for good reasons, but when it comes to American troops...yeah..some treat them like the saviours of this earth.
I have nothing against U.S troops outside Iraq's border as long as it doesn't affect me, but the moment U.S soldiers or ANY non-Iraqi soldier force themselves in my country then they deserve my hate and anger and rightfully so.
Hope you understood my point of view. I have nothing against you as a person but like many others I have a big problem with you as a foreign soldier in my country.
Your people were once the same when you fought against the Brits. We aren't any different in that aspect.
I appreciate your forthright answer. I don't find aything to disagree with.
But the important question for me is how do we end it?
You mentioned our revolutionary war - which was followed by the War of 1812, and then 75 years of nervous cohabitation. We became united with the Brits only after we found a common enemy in World War I.
In the absence of international war, national wars abound, in the absence of national wars, civil wars abound, in the absence of civil wars interstate wars abound, all the way down through tribes to individual families.The solution to war seems to be war at a different scale, and in fact the end of war sows the conditions for the next war.
I am not the genius that can end war. I want to be the one who finds the genius and bring his efforts to bear to break this awful cycle.
And to think I still consider myself an optimist!!
May you find and develop that space to raise your family in peace, but with the strength to oppose evil, the courage to act, the vision to see only what is important.
ORIGINAL: forstier But the important question for me is how do we end it?
How do we end what? The invasion? The occupation? The rift we created between long time brothers? The disaster we brought upon a country that had nothing to do with 9/11? The profitability of the situation we ill-planned for? The opportunities of stripping the riches of Iraq we sought for so long? Or the continued killing of innocents that we’re well known of?
Take your pick, because we cannot stop all of the above, or we will starve to death.
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Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.
War is a sufficiently broad concept to cover "all of the above". You are likely right that working to end something is likely to be less succesful than working toward something.
Too often that working toward something is toward some new enemy upon whom we wish to inflict pain and misery.
I am coming to conclude that war is the natural state of man. We either learn to control it or replace it with something better.
What does that mean for Iraq? I don't know. I do know that in addition to soldiers Iraq has resources that are there now but will not be for long. How do we use those resources for the benefit of the Iraqi peoples?
Soon enough there will be so few foreign troops in Iraq that they can no longer be the reason for the war that remains - those are not my words, those are the fears expressed by Iraqis themselves.
We are very good at describing our grievances but we need more effort articulating our hopes and dreams. We may be in the most miserable of circumstances but it cannot be the excuse for not acting or we will discover that we are not at that most miserable of places, only on our way to it.
The main problem with the Iraq war was that it was the wrong war against the wrong people at the wrong time. We started a war that we faked all the reasons for it and we lied, not only to our people but to the whole world, and argued with all our resources to prove its legitimacy. Yet we never planned on ending it, and we are not working towards ending it, as long as we are sucking up the oil to enrich our capitalistic few who are fattening not only their own pockets, but also the pockets of those politicians they lobbied and selected to govern this country. One by one our fabricated evidences have surfaced, and most the Americans are getting angrier by the minute for the deception game that our leaders (which I did not elect by the way) played on us.
You mentioned (a new enemy). If you’re considering Iraqis as enemies then your mind is as blundered as Bush and his administration. All of this started after our infamous 9/11 attack, that was supposedly planned and executed by a few bare-footed Arabs. (Wake up and smell the real deception) new evidence proves that those hijackers were inside the cockpit before the planes took off the runways. Hijackers who (I repeat) none of them were Iraqis or had anything to do with Iraq. Next time you point to whom you call an enemy, do your homework and collect real evidence before you inflict death and destruction upon a nation who never even touched a hair on an Americans head.
War is not the natural state of man, it is the natural state of all evil forces on earth, and not all men are evil. Those who have no control over their rage, go on a rampage of war to not actually resolve a problem, but to satisfy their hunger for human flesh and thirst for human blood.
The only way to use Iraqi resources for the benefit of Iraqis is to get the hell out of their and leave them alone. If they chose peace and unity, then all hale to them, but if they want to take the road that their prophet took and rage war against each other, then they do not deserve the riches that come from these resources, and the world will be better off without them.
Our history is full of the roads we took to that miserable place. From the native Indians to Korea, to Vietnam, to Grenada, and now Iraq, never in our history we tried to follow the peaceful path to resolve any issue. We always played the role of the invader instead of the friend. Throughout our existence, we always bullied others and robbed what did not belong to us, not because we need that more than they do, but because we always want to chew more than we can swallow, because we poses such a nasty feeling of greed and live such a materialistic life, that we abandoned all humanity and the moral values that came with it. We claim that we have a trust in God, but we never, ever followed his words, instead we carry out the will of the devil.
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Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.
In the course of doing my family genealogy, I lucked into a couple of royal blood lines back eight or nine generations ago, and through no particularly extraordinary effort on my part found myself with a purportedly complete lineage back to the first recorded man.
That was boring. I decided to place these ancestors in some sort of historical context, and again through no extraordinary effort other than following links in wikipedia, began to look at history, the same history I was forced to study in jr high, high school, and college.
I saw what I saw. What was remarkable in the historical record of my ancestors was the great wars that they participated in {winning some, losing some} and the family treachery that they either performed or had performed upon them. War, battles, fighting and animosity was ever present.
Because war itself is evil does not mean that all men who employ war are evil or do not have worthy causes.
To suppose that peaceful existence is a natural and sustainable state has the danger of luring us into thinking that one of our foremost, lifelong efforts at controlling ourselves is unimportant. That's as dangerous as evil intent - when a man dies due to either evil action or good intentions gone awry, neither changes the way into heaven or the consequences for those he left behind.
The means to prevent war are not to buy off those who behave aggressively {the classic example is World War II}. The most reliable means to be able to reciprocate swiftly and forcefully or have a strong allies protection. There are other means. The Maginot line and great wall of China are examples of a strong defense. {In the end, China's great wall itself was defended from attack by the absence of a hostile population to it's north and served more to isolate culturally than provide defense.
The employment of economic and diplomatic webs of relationships may assist - but it appears to me that they only delay the inevitable.
Each society craves the resources of other societies, not because of a malthusian shortage of resources, but because of the apparent relative advantages brought by those resources. What idiot would go to battle over oil when nuclear energy can be had? {We can see the answer to that one}.
Harry there is a point I am disappointed in. I do not expect you to adopt me as your friend. But I would think that my intentions here have become apparent if not by my wit then by my persistence alone. I said nothing indicating that Iraq was to be our next enemy and am disappointed that you could even infer that. This site is attractive because it seems able to screen out personal invective and operate with a respect for those who come in peace and offer their opinion. And I may very well be a blunder head but it is because of my own actions and not those of George Bush.
PS You are forgiven for calling me a blunder head. I am still working on forgiving you for accusing it on George Bush.
I appear to have offended you. I apologize. I have a great deal of respect for what you have started here, but notice that I seem to inspire some measure of hostility on your part.
Please be specific in stating how you feel - this is your Forum area, not mine and if my presence offends then I can easily solve the offense
I have no hostility against those who has done no harm me or to my country.
What you are feeling is what we call unrealized guilt. You are feeling that the U.S. had all the right to storm into Iraq, dismantle its structure, spread chaos and destruction, bring back hatred between two brothers, who “had set aside their century old differences” were living in harmony with each other, cause mass hysteria among people, allow foreign insurgents to enter Iraq, kidnap, rape, murder, and shed the blood of innocent civilians.
For once, I would like our administration to stop the lies, the deceit, and the cover-ups; and tell the American public the real reason for raging all the wars we started around the globe.
I am seeing a complete support from you for the U.S. wars in the past, and present. Blind faith is unhealthy, relying solely on what CNN, Fox news, and other American news agencies report will give you a false sense of righteousness and superiority. Yet I have seen the same type of dishonesty from them as our government. Better get your news from more than one side, and come to your own conclusion.
Last, but not least; the best way to support our troops is to bring them home now, no delays, no exit strategy bull, they should have been home many Christmases ago.
_____________________________
Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.
The only way to use Iraqi resources for the benefit of Iraqis is to get the hell out of their and leave them alone. If they chose peace and unity, then all hale to them, but if they want to take the road that their prophet took and rage war against each other, then they do not deserve the riches that come from these resources, and the world will be better off without them.
The racist American Armenian tried his best to rise up to a high moral platform pretending to the poor Frostier to be an honest "Iraqi-armenian-american" but soon the sh** of his mind surfaced up uncontrollably. Here, he stated the truth of his mind bias and the bias of most western mentality towards the very symbol of Islam - the prophet, and he expects to be brothers with them ??? The world was a better place when the west was sh** scared from the Soviet Union. They are still scared from small nations like Iran, Somalia, Yemeni people, Cuba, Venezuela and even Eritrea. The west was and is a conqueror fanatic. Is that the teaching of their prophets? It is typical for many non-muslims to portray Muslim world as violent yet they turn their eyes deep into the sand(or the sh** hole) when it comes to the whole course of western world history.
You Harry still have that Python under your belly and in your head.
The demented moderator apparently is angry on the yankees as his internet shop is not making money from the homeless yankees. He always assumes the God's deputy role. Only few weeks ago he congratulated Muslims for Ramadan...what a hypocrite!!!
< Message edited by havalkaka -- 12/25/2009 4:10:28 AM >
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إنما الأمم الأخلاق ما بقيت فإن هم ذهبت أخلاقهم ذهبوا
While I've only had time to skim-through the long posts posted here, I must say I am agreeing a lot with what Harry's saying. And Havalkaka, Islamic historians and even every Arab admit that Muhammed was a bit of a war-mongerer, there really is no denying it, just like the first Popes were greedy money-grabbing degenerates. I really don't think Harry was trying to offend anyone, he is just saying the truth.
Harry From what I have skimmed-read, I completely agree with you. The thing is they will be leaving Iraq, but the problem is that they will leave behind them an unjust framework of subjugating the Iraqi people into a colonial-like submission.
What I mean by that are things like the State Of Forces agreement - sure Private Military Contractors/Mercenaries working with the US Armed Forces will be accountable under Iraqi law. However it still guarantees immunity to those working for diplomats like the psychoticmass-murdering mercenaries who murdered 17 innocents after a suicide car bomb, itself aimed at the civilians too. Liberators should be protecting the people, not further persecute them.
It also includes the 'Strategic Framework Agreement' which, according to the documentation itself "...aimed at ensuring international cooperation including minority ethnicity, gender, and belief interests and other constitutional rights..." Basically it gives free reign to the US to meddle in minority affairs, blatantly labelling those people as puppets (even those who disagree with what it is doing), and will further the rift between Iraq's already torn apart society!
Another thing is that permanent American Army Bases will be left in Iraq, just like with many other countries around the world. While this might be a very good deterrent to prevent aggression from other countries, it will indisputably have an influence on Iraqi domestic politics.
Finally, please all my friends - lets not get into an arguement with the whole python/religion/ethnicity rubbish again, remember the despicably ugly arguements that followed, or how badly all us brothers on this site, who all want the best for Iraq, were devided and torn apart?
An interesting trait is how hot blooded and emotional Iraqis are - maybe if we learn to take a step back and take a deep breath, and also not assume and jump to conclusions straightaway, things will be this little bit better. None of us here are enemies - Iraqis, Americans and others - we all want whats best for Iraq, that's why we are here.
I try the best I can to keep religion out of my posts. I only mentioned the wars fought in the name of Islam to make a point and not to label the Prophet Mohamed as a warmonger. I agree with you in what the Catholic Church did in the past (they might still be having some negligible influence behind the scenes). However, the least we can say about them is that they are not bragging about it, believe me, I am experiencing it firsthand.
Another point I agree with you is the west’s efforts in world domination. I am sure that is what I was fighting against with my words, but those who welcomed the intervention of the west in Iraq’s affairs are the very same ones who claim bravery, yet they beg the west to save their bloody asses. While they are getting their noses browned by the west’s behinds, they are also accusing them of being conquerors.
Evidence of hypocrisy at its peak.
_____________________________
Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.
Welcome to Iraq, the liberated Iraq. On behalf of all people of Kurdistan in Iraq and at least 70% of the rest of Iraqis, I welcome you as our liberator and we are proud to have you among us. We trust that American liberators will repeat their experience with Japanese with Iraqis too. Once upon the time Japanese used all their energies in a destructive way against their own interests. Later Americans guided them how to use their energy constructively. Consequently this helped Japanese a lot. Finally Japanese did better than Americans. Iraqis always have been using their potential energy destructively against themselves, Iraqis. But the moment when the first American tank reached the heart of Baghdad, American experience with Japanese started with Iraqis. Because of this, the new Iraqi generation will gradually do better than Americans and Japanese.
Welcome to Iraq, the liberated Iraq. On behalf of all people of Kurdistan in Iraq and at least 70% of the rest of Iraqis, I welcome you as our liberator and we are proud to have you among us. We trust that American liberators will repeat their experience with Japanese with Iraqis too. Once upon the time Japanese used all their energies in a destructive way against their own interests. Later Americans guided them how to use their energy constructively. Consequently this helped Japanese a lot. Finally Japanese did better than Americans. Iraqis always have been using their potential energy destructively against themselves, Iraqis. But the moment when the first American tank reached the heart of Baghdad, American experience with Japanese started with Iraqis. Because of this, the new Iraqi generation will gradually do better than Americans and Japanese.
I wonder if some Iraqis greeted the Brits the same way following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire and the occupation of Iraq back then...after all the Brits did use many similar excuses for occupying Iraq just like the U.S did (what a surprise...) to justify the invasion and occupation of Iraq.
I don't know, perhaps you could ask Kurds and Arabs who are still alive from those times about how they felt being liberated with poison gas. I'm sure many of them were happy and welcomed the British liberation just like you and some Iraqis welcomed the occupation 2003 without thinking of the consequences that would follow with it.
Some people in Iraq suffer from such a huge colonial mentality and identity crisis that they would still welcome the Western world, Iran or Arab neighbhours even if all these sides were to nuke them.
How do you end something that you started out of your own will and intention. Unless the desire of feeling guilty from what has been done doesn't come it won't end. Unless the occupiers reach a critical point of where they can't maintain their occupation anymore then it won't end.
Even so, even if all troops were to pull out..can someone just tell me how the U.S embassy in Iraq wouldn't count as a form of occupation, only difference being a much smaller one?
I would recognize an U.S embassy (preferrably not but unfortunately the world doesn't work that simple) but one of that size, with that kind of luxury and amount of personnel among other factors? Not one chance......just think how Americans would feel if Iraq built an embassy as large as that one on Ground Zero. I bet many of them wouldn't be so happy about it.
I think that the solution is in the hands of Iraqi ppl. and this site has some really interesting ideas check it out plz. and share with me your thoughts www.iraqoilshares.org
Although the idea is nothing new to the Arab world, yet I do not see the possibility of adopting it in Iraq. Kuwait has been sharing its oil profits with its citizens for decades.
Iraq, on the other hand is a horse of a different color. The political corruption is so widely spread that it starts from the president and it spreads all the way down to the puniest clerk in the system. The northern corruption differs in no way.
What will assure that no one (and I do mean no one) will not overstate the number of his own family just to receive extra shares? Some ethnicities will not agree to it since they are already claiming the oil rich areas as their own and no one else’s, and they are not willing to share the profits from these wells.
This would be a completely new life experience to the majority of Iraqis, they will be prayed on, manipulated, and the money will be laundered without them knowing what’s really going on.
The high clerics will certainly denounce the idea as forbidden by Islam, yet rest assured that they themselves will be profiting from it by forcing their followers into donating the money to their local Mosque, which is another way of money laundering.
Personally, I think the Idea is great if it can be adopted.
_____________________________
Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.
hello. this is my first time to post something but I just wanted to let u knw that I related to all your questions in your head by wondering what the other people r thinking...almost like 9th grade. although I have been n 9th grade for more than 15plus yrs...I jus was taken back.well if u ever find those answers pls let me know. muah!
ORIGINAL: forstier Soon enough there will be so few foreign troops in Iraq that they can no longer be the reason for the war that remains - those are not my words, those are the fears expressed by Iraqis themselves.
A gun is not fired without pulling the trigger. The US, its allies, & their illegal occupation of Iraq were the finger that pulled that trigger.
If the ocuppation & war did not take place, if the Iraqi security apparatus were not disolved, then there would be no chaos and the 'war that remains' would not exist and furthermore, a million Iraqi liveswould have been saved, a further 4 million Iraqis would have not been displaced from their homes, and last but not least (as you may value this more than civilian lives)... over 4,500 US military lives wouild have been saved.
ORIGINAL: forstier Soon enough there will be so few foreign troops in Iraq that they can no longer be the reason for the war that remains - those are not my words, those are the fears expressed by Iraqis themselves.
A gun is not fired without pulling the trigger. The US, its allies, & their illegal occupation of Iraq were the finger that pulled that trigger.
If the ocuppation & war did not take place, if the Iraqi security apparatus were not disolved, then there would be no chaos and the 'war that remains' would not exist and furthermore, a million Iraqi liveswould have been saved, a further 4 million Iraqis would have not been displaced from their homes, and last but not least (as you may value this more than civilian lives)... over 4,500 US military lives wouild have been saved.
I would like to add something here, even if the whole intention was to invade and remove Saddam and his regime it will never explain or excuse the very simple fact that they dissolved the whole military and security forces. One of the given excuses for doing so was the De-Baathification process which is a load of bullsh*t as even the most undeveloped country in the whole world realize what happens when you remove the only security it has left in the country from both influence from the outside and criminal opportunists inside. Besides didn't the American president back then, George W. Bush himself say that he didn't know why they decided to remove the whole military ? Yeah sure, like the intentions aren't clear enough.
What's even more amazing to my eye at the moment is that the very same force that came to "remove the Baath party and liberate Iraq" (after lying about a bunch of other things) are pressuring the current govt. to take some of them back in again. Yet some people have the nerve to say that everything the U.S has done in Iraq and continue to do is good, yet some people have the nerve to say that everything the current Iraqi government, which bend down at the slightest pressure from its Persian and White masters, has done in Iraq is good.
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