It really breaks my heart to see that not only the violence and bombing are continuing, but that these blood-thirsty thugs are targetting churches to further divide Iraq's communities.
It’s a shame that the most advanced Middle Eastern country during the 60s & 70s has gone back a thousand year, and has fallen a victim of murderous claws of religious extremists.
_____________________________
Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.
I must say that I am ashamed of those of my brothers who call themselves muslims for the actions that are taking place against the christians in iraq
I hope that God will forgive us all and one day we will learn to live others who worship the same God and have shed blood with us against all enemies of iraq
i am also disgusted with the iraqi government's response, wonder what would happened if 6 shia religous sites were bombed the same day or if that would have to happen to mosques
truely ashamed and feel sorrow for minorities in iraq under this secterian government
Indeed Iraq was the most advanced country in the rigion during 60s and 70s. These are some examples:
1- Because Kurds refused to do what central government told them to do, a civil war started between Baghdad and Kurds on 1961 and lasted until the liberation of Iraq.
2- On 1963, Extreme Arab Nationalists, Baathists, took power by force. Within 24 hours they slaughtered at least 10,000 Iraqis.
3- A few months after they took over power, they attacked Kurdistan and razed thousands of Kurdish villages to the ground or arabised them and made the rightful owners refugees.
4- Within a year a different form of Arab Nationalism, Nasirites, took over the power by force. They did their share of slaughtering Iraqis.
5- After that these Nasirite Arab Nationalists also gave their share of damage to Kurdistan.
6- After few years Baathist Arab Nationalists regained power by force but this time they decided never give it up except on the dead bodies of millions of Iraqis. After that they did their worst to slaughter Iraqis.
-They attacked Kurdistan but this time they were defeated miserably infornt of Kurds. So they gave Iraqi land to Iran to recruit Iran against Kurds. - Soon after that they went to war againt Iran for 8 years. This caused the slaughter of at least half million Iraqis
So I don't have time enough to give any more examples to prove how advanced Iraq was during 60s and 70s.
Please do not change the subject; you are trying to divert the issue. Iraq was the most advanced Arabic nation during that time whether you like it or not.
Do not drag the Kurdish issue into this. You have something to get out of your chest about Kurds do it in the Iraqi-Kurdish issue forum, not here.
We are not talking about Kurds, Ba'thists issues, we're talking about the mutual religious respect that was spread among the public which has nothing to do with what the governments did or done. Political brawls were and are everywhere; you can find them even in the most technologically advanced countries; and outside the border, all around Iraq.
You or your parents left Iraq for the hate of the Ba’th government that did not see eye to eye with the communists. I left Iraq because I wanted nothing to do with a country that ruled either by militant based politicians, or (as we see today) religious extremists.
We all have our reason for leaving Iraq, yet before that we used to love it, and now we are trying to keep that memory alive, unless you don’t care a bit about it; then you’re barking at the wrong tree.
_____________________________
Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.
Many believed Iraq was one of the most advanced country in the region during 60s and 70s. But Iraq at that was like an ugly woman, who cleverly disguised herself as a prety woman with the use of make up. But this ugly woman gradually became too old to use make make up any more. So at the end, all her ugliness exposed.
These are the same retarded ****s who blow up Mosques shouting "Allahu Akbar" - even often of their same sect over silly disagreements with some Imam or staff working there.
Anyway, this **** was never in Iraq before - never in our culture. Shia, Sunni, Christians, Kurds, Arabs and Turkomen all lived together happily for hundereds of years. This BS is coming from abroad - and since it isn't at all helping us Iraqis, destrying Iraqi Heritage which has been there for hundreds of years, it's helping some other outside interests. They use it to fool the Dama'3siya of our society into furthering their agenda, rather than the agenda of Iraq and the Iraqi people.
Please remember, in this world, everything is calculated down to the **** penny. I highly doubt those low-IQ retards and spastics would randomly happen onto some ridiculously expensive and rare C4 to blow up religious places just by chance. Someone is supplying and training them with it, and they wont spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to blow up a Mosque, Church or Shrine if it wont have a potent effect that will play into their pockets.
Before sounding like a broken record again brothers, the people behind those brainwashed criminals and retarded thugs want to devide us badly. What we must do is put these terrorist brainwashed ****s doing this to sleep like dogs - most are brainwashed beyond a cure; and resist all attempt to devide as a people.
Many believed Iraq was one of the most advanced country in the region during 60s and 70s. But Iraq at that was like an ugly woman, who cleverly disguised herself as a prety woman with the use of make up. But this ugly woman gradually became too old to use make make up any more. So at the end, all her ugliness exposed.
I am sorry but I don't like this analogy and I find it insulting to women. Why don't you use a Man's example. "Modern" Men in Iraq spend a hell lot of time trimming their moustaches and shaving their beard well under the skin to look attractive to the other side, they then put scents and a nice suite plus a tie and walk around desparately.
Now seriously, Iraq was never in any progress. All was false. And so is any other country in that region. Here I am talking about industrial progress, not issues like health or education.
Iraq was inflated after kuwait attack. Inflated by the west and was projected as regional super power ...yet the true impact was expressed in what I found in a drawing of a fellow Brit who put a "scud missile coming off the back passage of a camel".
Iraq claimed to produce "cheese, yogurt, cream.milk..." but even these were imported from the west in big blocks or buckets, repackaged and sold as national product of Ba'ath regime together with some locally produced fraction. Admittedly, the kurds produce the highest quality yogurt and kebabs with koya kebabs ranking the best after turkish ones.
Eygypt produces the "Nasr" car, well we all know which country is behind that car's design. Iran produces "Paykan" car , this was Hillman Hunter, the plant bought from the Brits by its entirety.
Turkey is making progress, There are many turkish industrial products in western shops I hope it is not western industrial outsourcing.
Once we stop just selling oil and once we can manufacture and sell to the world, I will be proud even if it is that "Fanous" or "lump" which is still being imported from china.
Having said that, Iraq is best at producing and destroying humans - well this is not that difficult. You can kill many lives using imported rat's poison which others may call chemical weapons industry just to inflate your killing technology talents
< Message edited by havalkaka -- 7/19/2009 10:02:34 AM >
no matter how backward you think Iraq is look at the 1960's and 1970's, Iraq was at least sending students abroad and these students were excelling in science with their masters, Phd's and coming back to the country to help build it. Iraq went under a social transformation from the re-building that took place, yes Iraq in some instances wasn't manufacturing things from the grounds up but every country these days start like that. Industrial revolution doesn't start from ground zero, just imagine if Iraq didn't get into wars in the past 30 years the country was making progeress in creatig hitech jobs in assembly of products from tv's, refrigiration, buses, tractors even weaponry. The skills that are developed and the knowhows were being developed. Look at China! No one used to buy products from them back in the 1960's and now every new technology in the USA is being shipped there, the Chinese are learning from this process and eventually they will be the ones that have more advanced and hitech people and we in the united states will be the importers of their products and technology and we will lose the skills to the chinese.
so I think no matter how you look at it, Iraqis were in the process of moving away from agriculture and into industrial nation and that takes long time to materialize however when you have a leader and countries are iraq that want a peice of each other then that's counter produtive. But honeslty, if you compare Iraq to country like Egypt I would say that per capita Iraqis are/were much more compitents that their Egyptians.
Egypt that has so much human capital and have not been in wars still can't manufacture a screw! all they manufacture is cans of fool mdamas and tours to the pyramids
Iraq has potential and resources but it's being handled by the wrong crowd and is being raped of its resources by Iraqis themselves who are loyal to Iran and the west.
what's happening in iraq now is no more than a baath regime disgused in a shia cover and a phony democratic process, the new leader is as brutal and will continue to serve the interests of those who lie outside of iraq
but please stick to the subject of this thread as I believe we are moving away from the real issue here which is the respect to others who share the same history but have different religious beliefes
Firstly I must admitt I'm completely useless at History and really don't know much about how Iraq was back then, so I really can't argue as I really don't know much more than what the person above said.
However, all I know is that Iraqi society is fast heading towards a stone-age one, and while I understand some of the scars and long-term effects of this war should never be belittled and expected to go away within a couple generations at least, something drastic must be done to stop any more violence. Otherwise we will fall beyond help.
I think we shouldn't focus too much on the past, and argue about that, as the present is the critical time. This Maliki softy-softy "We're gonna impose (yet) another security crackdown" is not helping, and everytime one of these attacks happen, it will exponentially be more difficult for Iraq to ever recover.
I appologise for all you guys for sounding like a broken record with all my drastic action/martial law crap, but I strongly believe we can all kiss a one united country, people and history going back thousands of years, consisting of mutual love and acceptance to one another goodbye if this continues - if it's not too late already.
My question is, what do you guys think should be done to stop this violence - dead.
quote:
ORIGINAL: havalkaka
Admittedly, the kurds produce the highest quality yogurt and kebabs with koya kebabs ranking the best after turkish ones.
What dickhead did those rankings? I just came back from a visit to Turkey for the second time, and none of their Kebabs even slightly measure up to the ones the Kurds in Iraq make.
I even remember my parents and their parents in Iraq going especially to Kurdish Kebabchiya and even Kurdistan for the Kebabs, which I am sure are probably invented by Kurds not Turks. However, the yoghurt, cheese and other dairy food prize must go to the Arabs in the South of Iraq with the much richer Jamoose (Buffalo) milk they use and unrivalled expertise and experience.
no matter how backward you think Iraq is look at the 1960's and 1970's, Iraq was at least sending students abroad and these students were excelling in science with their masters, Phd's and coming back to the country to help build it.
Good you mentioned this ugly phenomena. Even Mauritania, Madagascar, Nepal, and now KRG(???)... are doing that. They think they can just get some members of their party or some tech-heads(otherwise empty) to go up there in the west and kick start the revolution. This is by itself a stupid planning. You don't need to keep this mentality of a consumer for the west. You better stop buying from others even their degrees.
History has shown that many of these students come back arrogant talking all their life about the wonderful west and western life, if they return at all. The notion of various degree levels is misunderstood, is cosmetic and superficial. The 3rd world countries do not need tech-heads, they don't want to reach the moon, they just ought to improve the sewage system first of all and take the donkey transport system off the western cameramen...
In 1981, I was sitting in a brigade HQ (underground) with a group of officers. Among us was the brigade doctor who had visited Germany for 2 weeks(before becoming a conscript). He was saying, about police dogs in Germany, this "Their dogs have ranks and when a sergeant dog passes by Leutenant dog, he will take full salute".
Well no comment but I hope that doctor is not still talking about Germany and that he is well and looking after himself and his patients.
Similarly a friend of mine is doing PhD in the UK and said this "Strange even their bees don't sting !!!"
Do you expect these idiots to build the country? Ya Salaam.
When the modern state of Iraq founded after WW1, it had all the fundamental of a modern state and was a lot more advanced than China and India, both of which were suffering from starvation from that time and as far as 1960.
When we entered 21st century China and India had entered space race but Iraq had become the land of despair, poverty and mass graves. In other words, in 80 years from 1920 to 2000, Iraq had gone backward a lot, from better to the worst. One must have PhD in sociology and social psychology to identify the faults of Iraqi society.
On the basis of a simple commonsense the case of Iraqi people can be explained as illogical culturally, which pushes Iraq backward, not forward. Let us to use the case of Saddam Hussein, Noory Malikey, the prime minister, and Kurdistan Democratic Experiment to prove this point.
Saddam Hussein came from a very poor social background, broken family, uneducated, was abused during his childhood, brought up mainly in the streets and became a gangster and assassin. Then he became a dictator and ruled Iraq for almost 30 years. Now how some one like Saddam Hussein reached the highest position in Iraq and kept it for a long time?
Never mind about Saddam Hussein, the poor creature. Let us talk about Noory Malikey. He has a rich social background, culturally and financially. Highly educated and have spent years in western world. Despite all these advantages, he has a distorted vision and has not matured enough to possess the right moral values fit to the people of his position. Let us to use a few examples. He took the constitutional oath to abide by constitution. But he violated his oath when he sent Iraqi Army to Khaneqin, a secure and peaceful place, to make a political point. Constitutionally, Iraqi Army can be used only for security reasons not for political reasons.
He supports Hudeba block in Mosul against Kurdish brotherhood block. Hudeba block won election in Mosul on the platform of fighting Kurds and expelling Americans and Iranians. By Iranians, Hudeba block means Iraqi Shi3e, which Malikey knows. In other words, If Hudeba block supporters regain control of Iraq, they confiscated every thing Malikey has, including his ID papers, take him to the border and kick him to Iran. But regardless to these facts, Malikey supports them. So how did some one like Malikey, the wrong person, take the highest position in Iraq?
So far the only good thing has come out from Iraq since 1920, is Kurdistan Democratic Experiment. This supposed to have become a symbol for the rest of Iraq to follow. Contrary to that, Kurdistan considered an evil and the cause of all ills in Iraq. Now many members of Iraqi Parliament speak on behalf Turkish and Iranian interests as excuse to blame Kurds. Iraqi Parliament members have become Iranian and Turkish Agents because they hate Kurds. In return, Turkey and Iran send terrorists to Iraq and take Iraqi blood, water.
ORIGINAL: Londoner2k9 When the modern state of Iraq founded after WW1, it had all the fundamental of a modern state and was a lot more advanced than China and India, both of which were suffering from starvation from that time and as far as 1960.
When we entered 21st century China and India had entered space race but Iraq had become the land of despair, poverty and mass graves. In other words, in 80 years from 1920 to 2000, Iraq had gone backward a lot, from better to the worst. One must have PhD in sociology and social psychology to identify the faults of Iraqi society.
On this point here, what you are overlooking is that, unlike China and India, Iraq has a wealth of black gold, which put it under occupation even before WW1, and if anyone thinks that Iraq was at any moment in time autonomous and free of any foreign influences, then, that person must be high as a kite.
Foreign occupations have always taken from Iraq and given to others, including China and India. Therefore it is almost unfeasible for a country that is being ripped off of its own riches, and deliberately left backwards (not to intervene with the occupiers’ plans) to advance itself as well as those countries which are getting the riches.
In the case of China and India, it is not only the size of the land, but also because of their strategic locations that made them a good target for advancements in science which is primarily used for military purposes, which in turn is a must for global domination, which at the time was (and most likely still is) the main goal for both super powers.
So you see, there was a reason for Iraq not to be advanced in the field of science. But enough of that, I reiterate myself, when I say “I was not talking about the advancement in science, or technology, I was making the point that among the people, all religions, ethnicities, no matter how divers, we all lived harmoniously, with no major attacks on each other.” I do agree that few insignificant misunderstandings have happened throughout the years, but no one side ever used military type operations to force their beliefs on any other.
_____________________________
Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.
From what you are writing, you guys again still trying to squeeze in the Kurdish issue, and doing your best to convince us that there is democracy in what you call “Kurdistan” by painting a rosy picture which we all know and see that it’s not so. Please, discuss issues with Kurds in the appropriate forum, not here.
_____________________________
Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.
It’s a shame that the most advanced Middle Eastern country during the 60s & 70s has gone back a thousand year, and has fallen a victim of murderous claws of religious extremists.
Indeed Iraq was the most advanced country in the rigion during 60s and 70s. These are some examples:
I am glad you acknowledge the reality of this true statement.
quote:
1- Because Kurds refused to do what central government told them to do, a civil war started between Baghdad and Kurds on 1961 and lasted until the liberation of Iraq.
If the central goverment bowed down to Kurdish demands (as the case of what is happening now since 2003) then there would be no point of having a central government as the Iraqi state would be a weak failed state. For your information, a strong proposition was offered to Barzani including autonomy of Dohok, Arbil, & Sulaimaniya but Barzani chose war instead because Kirkuk wasn't included.
quote:
2- On 1963, Extreme Arab Nationalists, Baathists, took power by force. Within 24 hours they slaughtered at least 10,000 Iraqis.
Thats a very high figure. Worse than Saddam's, Stalin's and Hitler's records. Do you have any facts to back this?
quote:
3- A few months after they took over power, they attacked Kurdistan and razed thousands of Kurdish villages to the ground or arabised them and made the rightful owners refugees.
I thought Arabization took place in the 1970's rather than the 1960's.
quote:
So I don't have time enough to give any more examples to prove how advanced Iraq was during 60s and 70s.
Up until 1979, Iraq was advanced in the re many aspects: Education, Health-care, fashion, art, poetry, transportation, and infrastructure.
ORIGINAL: Londoner2k9 In other words, in 80 years from 1920 to 2000, Iraq had gone backward a lot, from better to the worst.
If someone like Talabani became the president of Iraq, Barzani became the president of Iraq's 3 northern provinces, and Maliki and other religious fundamentalists also in power, then it must have gone backwards. I think its gone more backwards in the last 6 years than it did from 1920 as you claim.
quote:
But he violated his oath when he sent Iraqi Army to Khaneqin, a secure and peaceful place, to make a political point. Constitutionally, Iraqi Army can be used only for security reasons not for political reasons.
Khaneqin is part of Iraq. Any national army has the right to go anywhere within its borders at any time. The Peshmerga have been controlling Khaneqin, as well as other places outside the KRG territiories such as Sanjar, Mosul, Tal Kayf, Kirkuk, and other areas. Their presence there are more political and the point has been taken.
quote:
So far the only good thing has come out from Iraq since 1920, is Kurdistan Democratic Experiment. This supposed to have become a symbol for the rest of Iraq to follow.
There's more corruption in Iraqi Kurdistan today than there is in the rest of Iraq. Is that really a model to follow?
Khaneqin is part of Iraq. Any national army has the right to go anywhere within its borders at any time. The Peshmerga have been controlling Khaneqin, as well as other places outside the KRG territiories such as Sanjar, Mosul, Tal Kayf, Kirkuk, and other areas. Their presence there are more political and the point has been taken.
Constitutionally Iraqi Army should be kept away from politics and can be moved only for security reasons with the approval of high ranking military officers and with the coordination of other regional security forces like Kurdistan Defence Army, Peshmergas. The prime minister ordered Iraqi Army to move to Khaneqin to prove a political point. In this unconstitutional and an illegal move, he bypassed high ranking military officers and didn’t coordinate with Kurdistan Defence Army in Khaneqin. When they entered Khaneqin, they behaved as they had liberated Jerusalim. When Israeli Army entered Jerusalim after 6 days war on 1960, they never insulted any cultural symbols. But this Iraqi Army boldly provoked people of Khaneqin. They behaved just like Saddam Hussein times when they were insulting and disrespecting people of Kurdistan. This made all people of Khaneqin to come out to tell them to go back where they came from.
There is no problem for Iraqi army to move to any part of Kurdistan for security reasons provided it is professional, neutral and reliable and the move is legal and constitutional. At this insecure times, we believe that only Peshmergas can protect the security of Kurdistan areas like Kirkuk and Kurdistan part of Mosul and Diala. In Mosul, in the areas outside the control of Peshmergas, around 3000 Kurds have been murdered and the rest of the Kurds have escaped for their life. In Hawija, the same things have happened. It has been completely cleansed from the Kurds. We made some mistake in Diala area, we left some areas after the mediation of American Liberators and Islamic Supreme council. Since that time, the areas has become the land of terror and terrorists with the help of the army sent by the prime minister. We shall never repeat the same mistake, we did in Diala. Our Peshmergas are professional and have proved themselves to protect Kurdistan people from terror and terrorists. So when we have our own Peshemergas why we take the risk to depend on another army, which hates us, for our security.
ORIGINAL: Londoner2k9 Constitutionally Iraqi Army should be kept away from politics and can be moved only for security reasons with the approval of high ranking military officers and with the coordination of other regional security forces like Kurdistan Defence Army,
It is difficult when the Prime Minister is also the commander of all armed forces. This is in the Iraqi constitution and applies to nearly all governments, including the USA and UK.
quote:
When Israeli Army entered Jerusalim after 6 days war on 1960, they never insulted any cultural symbols. But this Iraqi Army boldly provoked people of Khaneqin.
It was in 1967, and the Israelis did provoke religious and cultural symbols over the years including many churches and mosques being transformed into casinos, bars, and clubs. Furthermore, they insulted and provoked the locals by not only occupying their land them but also colonialising them with Israeli settlers and have not withdrawn yet, 42 years later.
quote:
Our Peshmergas are professional and have proved themselves to protect Kurdistan people from terror and terrorists.
I was decided not to post on kurds in this thread as it is booked for our fellow christians but certain things have to be said:
quote:
ORIGINAL: tigris81
quote:
ORIGINAL: Londoner2k9 When Israeli Army entered Jerusalim after 6 days war on 1960, they never insulted any cultural symbols. But this Iraqi Army boldly provoked people of Khaneqin.
It was in 1967, and the Israelis did provoke religious and cultural symbols over the years including many churches and mosques being transformed into casinos, bars, and clubs. Furthermore, they insulted and provoked the locals by not only occupying their land them but also colonialising them with Israeli settlers and have not withdrawn yet, 42 years later.
I agree that israel did all that. However the previous iraqi army and security thugs were no better and certainly worse than israeli army. Arab settlers were brought everwhere and based away from mountains, kurdish mountain countryside was destroyed and made into no-go area and the list is too long. Today's iraqi army are made up from the very same thugs delivered by same mothers of previoud Iraqi thugs.
quote:
original:tigris81
quote:
original:londoner2k9 Our Peshmergas are professional and have proved themselves to protect Kurdistan people from terror and terrorists.
No comment
Well in 1975 these so called peshmergas abandoned the revolution in one day and handed the kurdish people to the Ba'ath regime for slaughter. No revolutionary leadership in human history did what Barzani did, just sent a message to all to surrender because he wanted to retire. In 1992, the same leadership again forced themselves as leaders and attacked some government buildings then fled and asked people to flee to mountains to die in thousands everyday. We have been taught to glorify the notion of peshmergas and killing yet this force was made up of a mosaic of escaped criminals, army deserters, ambitious teachers, failed youth plus local villagers many of whom were spies or switch sides on a monthly basis.
quote:
original:londoner2k9 We made some mistake in Diala area, we left some areas after the mediation of American Liberators and Islamic Supreme council. Since that time, the areas has become the land of terror and terrorists with the help of the army sent by the prime minister. We shall never repeat the same mistake, we did in Diala. Our Peshmergas are professional and have proved themselves to protect Kurdistan people from terror and terrorists. So when we have our own Peshemergas why we take the risk to depend on another army, which hates us, for our security.
You don't need to keep this mentality of a consumer for the west. You better stop buying from others even their degrees.
So what do you suggest mate, we buy them from our good 3ijmee friends, alongside their ridiculously warped and corrupted version of Islam used for Persian domination and oppressing the people, that even most of their own people wont swallow?
Or should our makfa5a ****hole of a country that i wont even call a 4th world country single-handedly rise to become a superpower without sucking up or taking sides in the world? Like I'm sure you seem to think is the case with Kurdistan...
The only realistic way we can even hope to sort our country out is if we start making alliances, taking sides and getting those people to help us, including by giving our students degrees, but also extending a lot further than that with trade, politicla and military. With our current situation, we have no hope in hell in fending off both the Iranians and Americans single-handedly without using the other, and with every aspect of Iraq's ifastructure blasted back to the stone-age, we need allies and foriegn expertise to help us get back to our feet.
Now the US/West are the only feasible superpowers in the world today, and from experience and what we have seen with almost half the countries in the world, which have become their allies or to some people "part of their empire", they have benefited greatly from security, an increasing economy and offering a life to their citizens which most Iraqis can just dream of. Besides, the whole invasion was to make us a state like that, which'll sell them oil extremely cheaply - they have no personal grudge/vendetta against us, as we only been hating the yankees since Saddam, if not the 1991 war.
Another choice would be Iran - using their ****ed version of Shia Islam to expand their Persian empire, again to exploit us, but also because they have an everlasting grudge and score to settle with their mortal enemy for thousands of years - the Arabs. This is dangerous because the terrorism they have been unleashing upon us both causes a lot more death and suffering, but also uses the dirt tactics of turning one Iraqi against his brother. Don't ever think they are just funding the Shia, Sunni and **** knows what other factions are also being helped by them. Continued chaos in Iraq will also help them in continuously disproving the US/West's efforts, hiding their war-crimes and also causing Arab suffering and tarnishing our image as barbarians.
Besides which, they are a losing power - sooner or later either the CIA will cause a revolution there, or the US or Israelis will send a few jets to bomb the **** out of them. Being under their control, we will surely also suffer, if we wont be suffering enough with a continual civil war as they rape and pillage our country in the chaos.
So I think our only hope is to distance ourselves from the Iranians and get closer to the Americans/West. And it's not like Kurdistan hasn't been busy sucking up to the West, but also Russia's, maybe Iran's and God knows who else. It's just the pot calling the kettle black saying we should stop kissing ass my friend.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Harry
quote:
ORIGINAL: Londoner2k9 When the modern state of Iraq founded after WW1, it had all the fundamental of a modern state and was a lot more advanced than China and India, both of which were suffering from starvation from that time and as far as 1960.
When we entered 21st century China and India had entered space race but Iraq had become the land of despair, poverty and mass graves. In other words, in 80 years from 1920 to 2000, Iraq had gone backward a lot, from better to the worst. One must have PhD in sociology and social psychology to identify the faults of Iraqi society.
On this point here, what you are overlooking is that, unlike China and India, Iraq has a wealth of black gold, which put it under occupation even before WW1, and if anyone thinks that Iraq was at any moment in time autonomous and free of any foreign influences, then, that person must be high as a kite.
Foreign occupations have always taken from Iraq and given to others, including China and India. Therefore it is almost unfeasible for a country that is being ripped off of its own riches, and deliberately left backwards (not to intervene with the occupiers’ plans) to advance itself as well as those countries which are getting the riches.
In the case of China and India, it is not only the size of the land, but also because of their strategic locations that made them a good target for advancements in science which is primarily used for military purposes, which in turn is a must for global domination, which at the time was (and most likely still is) the main goal for both super powers.
So you see, there was a reason for Iraq not to be advanced in the field of science. But enough of that, I reiterate myself, when I say “I was not talking about the advancement in science, or technology, I was making the point that among the people, all religions, ethnicities, no matter how divers, we all lived harmoniously, with no major attacks on each other.” I do agree that few insignificant misunderstandings have happened throughout the years, but no one side ever used military type operations to force their beliefs on any other.
I can't agree any more with you there brother, but Iraq will be heaven compared to what it is now if the operations happening now are just to shove one faction's beliefs down another's throats. What we have now includes violence aimed at ethnic (or rather also sectarian/religious cleansing), as well as mass-forced-displacements of ethnic, sectarian or religious groups out of whole cities and regions to change demographics and influence voting. Add to that the relatively minor countless assassinations on all of that faction's percieved enemies, revenge attacks, gang wars, death squads, corrupt law enforcement and then you have the civilians picking up arms to avenge and get a vendetta against who they think killed their loved ones. Now it's complete hell there my friend.
< Message edited by NeoBabylonian -- 7/22/2009 12:35:54 AM >
sorry guys I went away and came back and there so many posts. I read the reply from Londoner and let me quote:
quote:
Never mind about Saddam Hussein, the poor creature. Let us talk about Noory Malikey. He has a rich social background, culturally and financially. Highly educated and have spent years in western world.
I must ask to check on Nuri Al Maliki, he was the elementary school princaple, he was kicked out and fled the country for his involvement with the dawa party and iran, he went to iran and settled in syria, what western countrues? The guys can't speak english! On the other hand saddam studied law at the Cairo Law School in 1962. In 1971, Hussein received his Law Degree from the University of Bagdad. So to be honest, I don't see how you make him sound so educated and had far better education and exposure than saddam, for me I see them both the same, both responsible for what happened. As for saddam he died but the saga continues on maliki's watch.
Nouri Kamel al-Maliki was born in Abu Gharaq, a southern Iraqi town lying between Karbala and Al Hillah, in 1950. He attended school in Al Hindiyah (Hindiya). Al-Maliki received a bachelor's degree at Usul al-Din College in Baghdad, and a master's degree in Arabic literature from Baghdad University.[2] Al-Maliki lived for a time in Al Hillah, where he worked in the education department. He joined the Islamic Dawa Party in the late 1960s while studying at university.
In Syria, he headed the party's Jihad Office, a branch responsible for directing activists and guerrillas, in these days these organizations are regarded as terrorist organization espeially with the name such as Jihad.
I agree that israel did all that. However the previous iraqi army and security thugs were no better and certainly worse than israeli army. Arab settlers were brought everwhere and based away from mountains, kurdish mountain countryside was destroyed and made into no-go area and the list is too long. Today's iraqi army are made up from the very same thugs delivered by same mothers of previoud Iraqi thugs.
I remember when Baathists took over power on 8th February 1963. By June 1963, they attacked Kurdistan with full forces. Within a few days, they arabised 25 villages in my area. They forced every Kurd to leave his or her village only with what he or she was wearing.
quote:
Well in 1975 these so called peshmergas abandoned the revolution in one day and handed the kurdish people to the Ba'ath regime for slaughter.
Considering the circumstances of the situation, immediately after Iraqi Government recognised Iranian rights on Iraqi lands, East Shat Arab, Kurdistan Leadership didn’t have any choice except to save what can be saved at that time. Actually that decision had a hidden agenda, on the long term, which was to let Saddam Hussein to fight on behalf of Kurds and he did it very well. The decision was very costly but it was a best choice. This decision led to the evolution of KRG.
Considering the circumstances of the situation, immediately after Iraqi Government recognised Iranian rights on Iraqi lands, East Shat Arab, Kurdistan Leadership didn’t have any choice except to save what can be saved at that time. Actually that decision had a hidden agenda, on the long term, which was to let Saddam Hussein to fight on behalf of Kurds and he did it very well. The decision was very costly but it was a best choice. This decision led to the evolution of KRG.
Dear Kak:
I appreciate your efforts to lift morale but it is more useful for us all to learn from history.
Saved what? their own purses in USA and western accounts. Saved what? the spirit of revolution, the morale of kurds saved what? daily torture or the invasion of kurdistan by security thugs and by the brutal Arab occupying army Saved what? the kurdish villagers who were humiliated, driven in military lorries across Iraq back and forth. Saved what? the kurdish women who were harrassed publically by Arab security thugs in the cities.
and coming back(1980) as a split gang of thieves to work for the iranian army as mercenaries against iranian kurds and iraq and precipitating the gas attack by the evil regime.
and coming back again(1992) not to save this time but push the masses towards the mountains literally just to create an international funfair.
The Barzani leadership - after all their historic contributions - has proved itself at the end to be a gang of murderers who don't care for anything but their purses and chairs. For the sake of power, they are willing to kill anybody and side with any government. Today's corruption is just their very culture and yesterday's fight with PUK using artillery inside the city of Erbil is still vivid in our memory.
Having said that, from the Arab/Turk/Farsi perspective it really doesn't matter whether this leadership is good or bad, faithful or CIA agents, corrupt or straight. This triad of enemies doesn't want to know about kurdish identity and their rights in the first place.
As to KRG, it evolved like winning a lottery and thats all. Your words of "hidden agenda" are bizarre because at that time it was the Shah in Iran and the clergy showed their turbans years later. I am afraid I am not convinced by this sexy explanation. I don't think any leader is that thoughtful and predictive unless they got supernatural talents.
Finally just compare the kurds in 1975 with Gaza, or Lebanon or Tamils or even Darfur...and you see what I see... I am only worried this leadership will flee again once the brutal Shia army heads towards kurdistan having not learnt the big lesson that kurds will never stop resisting occupation.
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