I am so disgusted by this. Even more so, I am enraged by this pathetic government which released this criminal of a father, without subjecting him to the moral justice he deserved.
quote:
Two weeks ago, The Observer revealed how 17-year-old student Rand Abdel-Qader was beaten to death by her father after becoming infatuated with a British soldier in Basra. In this remarkable interview, Abdel-Qader Ali explains why he is unrepentant - and how police backed his actions. Afif Sarhan in Basra and Caroline Davies report.
For Abdel-Qader Ali there is only one regret: that he did not kill his daughter at birth. 'If I had realised then what she would become, I would have killed her the instant her mother delivered her,' he said with no trace of remorse. Two weeks after The Observer revealed the shocking story of Rand Abdel-Qader, 17, murdered because of her infatuation with a British solider in Basra, southern Iraq, her father is defiant. Sitting in the front garden of his well-kept home in the city's Al-Fursi district, he remains a free man, despite having stamped on, suffocated and then stabbed his student daughter to death. Abdel-Qader, 46, a government employee, was initially arrested but released after two hours. Astonishingly, he said, police congratulated him on what he had done. 'They are men and know what honour is,' he said. Rand, who was studying English at Basra University, was deemed to have brought shame on her family after becoming infatuated with a British soldier, 22, known only as Paul. She died a virgin, according to her closest friend Zeinab. Indeed, her 'relationship' with Paul, which began when she worked as a volunteer helping displaced families and he was distributing water, appears to have consisted of snatched conversations over less than four months. But the young, impressionable Rand fell in love with him, confiding her feelings and daydreams to Zeinab, 19. It was her first youthful infatuation and it would be her last. She died on 16 March after her father discovered she had been seen in public talking to Paul, considered to be the enemy, the invader and a Christian. Though her horrified mother, Leila Hussein, called Rand's two brothers, Hassan, 23, and Haydar, 21, to restrain Abdel-Qader as he choked her with his foot on her throat, they joined in. Her shrouded corpse was then tossed into a makeshift grave without ceremony as her uncles spat on it in disgust. 'Death was the least she deserved,' said Abdel-Qader. 'I don't regret it. I had the support of all my friends who are fathers, like me, and know what she did was unacceptable to any Muslim that honours his religion,' he said. Sitting on a chair by his front door and surrounded by the gerberas and white daisies he had planted in the family garden, Abel-Qader attempted to justify his actions. 'I don't have a daughter now, and I prefer to say that I never had one. That girl humiliated me in front of my family and friends. Speaking with a foreign solider, she lost what is the most precious thing for any woman. 'People from western countries might be shocked, but our girls are not like their daughters that can sleep with any man they want and sometimes even get pregnant without marrying. Our girls should respect their religion, their family and their bodies. 'I have only two boys from now on. That girl was a mistake in my life. I know God is blessing me for what I did,' he said, his voice swelling with pride. 'My sons are by my side, and they were men enough to help me finish the life of someone who just brought shame to ours.' Abdel-Qader, a Shia, says he was released from the police station 'because everyone knows that honour killings sometimes are impossible not to commit'. Chillingly, he said: 'The officers were by my side during all the time I was there, congratulating me on what I had done.' It's a statement that, if true, provides an insight into how vast the gulf remains between cultures in Iraq and between the Basra police the British army that trains them. Sources have indicated that Abdel-Qader, who works in the health department, has been asked to leave because of the bad publicity, yet he will continue to draw a salary. And it has been alleged by one senior unnamed official in the Basra governorate that he has received financial support by a local politician to enable him to 'disappear' to Jordan for a few weeks, 'until the story has been forgotten' - the usual practice in the 30-plus cases of 'honour' killings that have been registered since January alone. Such treatment seems common in Basra, where militias have partial control, especially in the districts on the outskirts where Abdel-Qader lives. While government security forces and British troops have control over the centre, around the fringes militants can still be seen everywhere on the streets or at the checkpoints they have erected. And they have imposed strict laws of behaviour for all the local people, including what clothing should be worn and what religious practices should be observed. There are reports of men having their hands cut off for looting and women being killed for prostitution. Homosexuality is punishable by death, a sentence Abdel-Qader approves of with a passion. 'I have alerted my two sons. They will have the same end [as Rand] if they become contaminated with any gay relationship. These crimes deserve death - death in the name of God,' he said. He said his daughter's 'bad genes were passed on from her mother'. Rand's mother, 41, remains in hiding after divorcing her husband in the immediate aftermath of the killing, living in fear of retribution from his family. She also still bears the scars of the severe beating he inflicted on her, breaking her arm in the process, when she told him she was going. 'They cannot accept me leaving him. When I first left I went to a cousin's home, but every day they were delivering notes to my door saying I was a prostitute and deserved the same death as Rand,' she said. 'She was killed by animals. Every night when go to bed I remember the face of Rand calling for help while her father and brothers ended her life,' she said, tears streaming down her face. She was nervous, clearly terrified of being found, and her eyes constantly turned towards the window as she spoke. 'Rand told me about the soldier, but she swore it was just a friendship. 'She said she spoke with him because she was the only English speaker. I raised her in a religious manner and she never went out alone until she joined the university and then later when she was doing aid work. 'Even now, I cannot believe my ex-husband was able to kill our daughter. He wasn't a bad person. During our 24 years of marriage, he was never aggressive. But on that day, he was a different person.' The mother is now trying to raise enough money to escape abroad. 'I miss my two boys,' she said. 'But they have sent a message saying that I am wrong for defending Rand and that I should go back home and live like a blessed Muslim woman,' said Leila, who is now volunteering with a local organisation campaigning for better protection for women in Basra. One of those running the organisation, who did not want to be identified, said that Rand's case was similar to so many reported in Basra, with the only difference being she was in love with a foreigner, rather than an Iraqi. 'There isn't too much to say. Rand is dead. It is a tragedy and will be a tragedy for many other families in Iraq in the days to come. 'According to information we have been given, some from Rand's colleague, we have doubts that her love was reciprocated. We have the impression that Rand was in love, but the English soldier wasn't. But, for a girl to be paid nice compliments about her beauty and her intelligence, it was enough for her to think she was in love. 'She isn't here any more for her mother to ask any of the questions she would like to. Rand's case had repercussions because she fell in love with a foreigner. But what about the other girls murdered through "honour" killings because they fell in love with some of a different sect, or lost their virginity, or were forced to become prostitutes?' Rand's mother used to call her 'Rose'. 'That was my nickname for her because when she was born she was so beautiful,' she said. 'Now, my lovely Rose is in her grave. But, God will make her father pay, either in this world ... or in the world after.'
We are all responsible for this family tragedy. With my deepest sympathy to the family and the victim, I have to look at the events from a different perspective. The crux of the matter is our “false image of the western person” and the “western paradise”. Our thoughts about them and their way of life are based on a dreamish mentality and not actual facts. This is futher compounded by our own fellows after returning from a short or long visit to any of the western countries. I know people who visited a western country for 2 weeks and kept talking about it for years and years. I know many students coming back and delivering a totally false image about their great experience. I remember a conscript doctor saying these words to a group of iraqi army officers aftera 2 week visit to Germany: “even their police dogs have ranks and when a sergeant dog passes by the officer dog, it has to take the military salute…” Lies and lies and lies. I have full respect for any geniune marriage be it western or eastern or mixed. But I don’t want a university woman to marry a sergeant just because he is western and that her dream will come true. Most westerners – except professionals – are very shallow in their education outside their field of focus. Their daily live -though generally smooth - is very repetative Their feel factor is very low and unstable. There is no meaning for romance or loyalty in the same way as interpreted in the east. This is because they never pass through that sex-deprivation stage that occurs in the islamic world. A typical life cycle of an average western person is as follows:
12 ~ 18 years old : plenty of relations with local opposite sex, condoms are thrown in the allyways. Some teen age pregnancies occur. Parents(usually not married) see this as normal development. These relations are unstable and they keep changing over in few weeks or months.
18 years and over: they are expected to leave the family home and have their own… the person will rent a room or flat with others and work to pay the rent. Occasionally having another from opposite sex. They are fed up by now …the money issues become more important. Meanwhile, the two parents – being left alone – soon lose any bond with one another. Each one tries somebody else and over several times. It is common to have a cat or a dog as a replacement for their kids. In fact at the ages of 40 and over thre is an army of women and men who keep entering shallow short affairs. Finally and the extremes, some die alone in their rooms without being realised for months or years. A woman in the UK was discovered dead 3 years after the death…? I am sure if the victim of this Basrah tragedy knew the facts, she would have never gone this way…
Havalkaka Interesting post. But I think what it most illustrates is that we equally misperceive each other. I am looking yet to meet the "typical" westerner you have described.
I am also quick to accept that I do not understand yet the culture of many of the peoples whose posts I track on this site. Each post seems to contain a "surprise" for me, and I curse my shyness for not asking about it but feel a need to not offend and to continue to talk.
I think when we conclude superiority of one culture over another we have not only lain the groundwork for war, but started the countdown toward its commencement. What I find more productive, and personally satisfying is to look for heroes - a heroe for me has a character worth emulating and incorporating. There are heroes here, seen in small passage in otherwise lengthy posts, seen in glimpses of courageuos actions in the face of overwhelming evil, seen in the outrage expressed over incompetently missed opportunities.
At a young age I worked for the Boy Scouts in community organization at several locations in North America. One of the principles drilled into my mind by my training, and then later by my experience, was that in any community, rural or urban, north or south, there are 3-5% of the people who set the cultural standard for the community. There is an additional 10% or so at the absolute other end of the scale and they publicly present the absolute worst examples of behavior. If you look at the two extremes, you will still not get an “average” of the behavior of the community, because the worst of behaviours is much more egregiously worse.
Much of my training centered on identifying those in leadership category. It could be the bank president, but it could also be the garbage man. It could be the school teacher, but it could equally well be the woodsman who is unable to completely read.
Nevertheless I leaned another important principal. The direction that the leadership is moving the community of peoples is far more important than their current status. Righteous leadership directing people into good works in a small rundown minority neighborhood will always be a more vibrant and exciting place to be than in a wealthy neighborhood where status comes from income and the leadership must worry about maintaining the status quo.
And another thing I believe in, that heaven is not a lonely place. The law of justice says that each of us, saint, sinner or somewhere in between must have an equal chance of glory or there will be glory for none. Why else would the wayward daughter find herself the child of righteous parents? Because the work of the righteous is not to condemn those less worthy, but to raise them up, strengthen and fortify them, to bring them to the point of independence where free will can be expressed unrestrained by the judgments of others, and the soul of a person truly seen in its glory.
Does this seem religious hokum? I hope not. It is an obligation I accept fearfully because it is a difficult one. It does not mean that I have to convert you to my religion, only that I must help you thrive in yours { or in the absence of religion, spirituality}.
I do not doubt that you encountered people as you describe them. But if there is the means for people to advance in their disbelief and unrighteousness, then there is also the chance for them to advance and improve. We have to capture that and not encourage the former.
Posts: 476
Score: 9 Joined: 10/26/2004 From: California Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: dritalin
Wow...I can't stop laughing, but I think he was serious. I'd reply with how untrue it all is, but I think I'll just stay away from this one.
I thought of replying to Havalkaka, but then I thought, what can you say to a person living in the eighteenth century to convince him that the world is moving forward? Unlike those who are still trying to pull it backwards and take it back to the dark ages. A man who sticks his head deep into the ground and refuses to accept the reality of the times, a man who wants everyone else to follow his beliefs, live our lives his way, and abide by the rules that he adopted for himself. The worst part is he believes he can do it.
_____________________________
God bless the whole world, No exceptions. الدين لله و الوطن للجميع
It is probably a hopeless quest, but when I see someone taking a position, however stupid and short sighted, I feel a compulsion to push them to do better. I'd rather talk to idiots and see what lunacy is expressed than discern it after the fact when disastrous results ensue.
We are all responsible for this family tragedy. With my deepest sympathy to the family and the victim, I have to look at the events from a different perspective. The crux of the matter is our “false image of the western person” and the “western paradise”. Our thoughts about them and their way of life are based on a dreamish mentality and not actual facts. This is futher compounded by our own fellows after returning from a short or long visit to any of the western countries. I know people who visited a western country for 2 weeks and kept talking about it for years and years. I know many students coming back and delivering a totally false image about their great experience. I remember a conscript doctor saying these words to a group of iraqi army officers aftera 2 week visit to Germany: “even their police dogs have ranks and when a sergeant dog passes by the officer dog, it has to take the military salute…” Lies and lies and lies. I have full respect for any geniune marriage be it western or eastern or mixed. But I don’t want a university woman to marry a sergeant just because he is western and that her dream will come true. Most westerners – except professionals – are very shallow in their education outside their field of focus. Their daily live -though generally smooth - is very repetative Their feel factor is very low and unstable. There is no meaning for romance or loyalty in the same way as interpreted in the east. This is because they never pass through that sex-deprivation stage that occurs in the islamic world. A typical life cycle of an average western person is as follows:
12 ~ 18 years old : plenty of relations with local opposite sex, condoms are thrown in the allyways. Some teen age pregnancies occur. Parents(usually not married) see this as normal development. These relations are unstable and they keep changing over in few weeks or months.
18 years and over: they are expected to leave the family home and have their own… the person will rent a room or flat with others and work to pay the rent. Occasionally having another from opposite sex. They are fed up by now …the money issues become more important. Meanwhile, the two parents – being left alone – soon lose any bond with one another. Each one tries somebody else and over several times. It is common to have a cat or a dog as a replacement for their kids. In fact at the ages of 40 and over thre is an army of women and men who keep entering shallow short affairs. Finally and the extremes, some die alone in their rooms without being realised for months or years. A woman in the UK was discovered dead 3 years after the death…? I am sure if the victim of this Basrah tragedy knew the facts, she would have never gone this way…
This is the dumbest post I've read in a very long time. Havalkaka, if it were up to you all the men folk would lock their women up and chain them to the stove. Father stomps and stabs daughter, brothers join in, uncles spit on the corpse. All this and you blame the west for this fathers cowardice. Whereas you have attempted to justify Abdel Qundara’s actions, my reaction is to hope that there really is an afterlife so this poor girl can spend a hundred years or so kicking her caveman of a father in the nuts while he gets sodomized by something large and excruciatingly painful. Bro, what century are you living in?
_____________________________
"As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others" - Nelson Mandela
Posts: 476
Score: 9 Joined: 10/26/2004 From: California Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: forstier
Harry;
It is probably a hopeless quest, but when I see someone taking a position, however stupid and short sighted, I feel a compulsion to push them to do better. I'd rather talk to idiots and see what lunacy is expressed than discern it after the fact when disastrous results ensue.
How well has that worked? Not very well.
Forstier
I’ve been on that road a while back. It is like trying to drive a nail into granite.
_____________________________
God bless the whole world, No exceptions. الدين لله و الوطن للجميع
Frosty, I am not claiming any cultural superiority. As a matter of fact, I don't believe in any type of mythology. I am simply stating the unquestionable facts. I appreciate your background in leadership statistics but I am not sure if americans are as good in sociology as they are in bombology.
We are all aware that the life style in the west is getting closer and closer to that of rabbits and I have no doubt that many of our fellow post-writers have been attracted to this rabbit land out of that deprivation in their home place and have given up all their past for the sake of it... We are all humans, children of Adam and Eve - Frosty - and at times we are lured to drop trousers but family values and a permanent bond is the very hallmark of humanity.
As to the cultural war, it had started long time ago when the zionists occupied Palestine and committed horrific massacres, followed by events in Iraq,Iran,Lebanon, Afganistan,somalia ...and more to come.
< Message edited by havalkaka -- 5/20/2008 7:14:46 AM >
Who are you to judge anyone? Are you telling me that god promoted you to a position that you are holy becuase you don't drop your trousers, and all the west are rabbit rabbit rabbit??????
Who gave you or anyone the right to kill god's creation? Would you rather have war and suffering or love?
Those without a sin may throw the first stone, thats whats in the bible. And you, never sinned in your life at all? Obviously you never travelled, you never spoke to a person from other countries, oh careful someone might think you are in love, your family might kill you for honour.
Grow up for god's sake, it time for you to understand your religion the correct way.
I find it insufficient to devotionally reply to your delusional post. But I feel much must be said.
The Middle East - although constantly feeding itself cultural bravado - is not a model of sociology. I have interacted with Arab students in the U.S. (namely from UAE, Saudia and such). Their social behaviorism is most repulsive. Whenever they see a woman (no matter what she looks like), they act like sexual dogs - as if they've never seen one.
Conversely, with my 'western' friends, although they are liberal and have open relations with different partners at a time, they dont immediately react like a bunch of primates at the very sight of females. They talk to them normally, as they would with any individual. Thus, these 'rabbits' seem to exhibit greater calm, restraint, and respect than the 'chosen people' of the Middle East. They dont drewl over some girl, the second she walks in, as if she's a slice of meat. There wasnt a moment with these Arab guys, after a woman passed, when they didnt talk about wanting to sexually engage her (in the most primitive manner).
Therefore, the Middle East has much homework to do, before claiming the top marks. I believe this behavioral abnormality among Arabs is due to the social diaphragm that has been erected, between genders back home. In a society where men and women regard eachother as invariant equals, such social aberrations and animalistic instincts become much more tempered.
< Message edited by Proton -- 5/21/2008 4:41:38 AM >
Proton, I agree with you 100%. What you describe is a fact that I have observed clearly, especially so in city centres when tourists from middle east behave like dogs, eye-raping any woman passing by. It is also a fact in our own countries and is due to segregation and sexual thirst which goes on even after marriage. It routes back to severe sexual deprivation in adolescence. Our new way of life is to blame for that.
Do not misunderstand me. I am not puritanic. I am simply showing the facts that people in the middle east don't know or get it distorted. It remains a fact that our society doesn't sanction sexual freedom or gay or lesbian marriage or that filthy homosexulity which even beasts wouldn't like to go for it.
The main issue to me from this post is this: Why focus on a single crime committed in severe anger in Basrah. What about the horrible crimes committed daily in the west? With my deepest sympathy to the victim of Basrah tragedy who out of a dreamish mentality lost her way, What if your sister fell in love with an occupying soldier...?
< Message edited by havalkaka -- 5/21/2008 9:57:54 AM >
Posts: 476
Score: 9 Joined: 10/26/2004 From: California Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: havalkaka I am not puritanic.
And yet in your previous posts you claimed to be the holiest of all, and the west being the most savage and sinister culture to exist.
quote:
ORIGINAL: havalkaka I am simply showing the facts that people in the middle east don't know or get it distorted.
Which fact are you talking about? Is it the freedom that all people enjoy regardless? Or the fact that the western part of the world has progressed beyond what you can comprehend? If you are talking about the sexual crimes that happen every now and then, then you should relax and look at the sexual crimes that happen in the Middle East and get buried on the spot, so no one will hear about them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: havalkaka It remains a fact that our society doesn't sanction sexual freedom or gay or lesbian marriage or that filthy homosexulity which even beasts wouldn't like to go for it.
And yet, all of that exists in center of Baghdad and all other provinces, they are only afraid of being murdered on the streets as they are in Iran.
quote:
ORIGINAL: havalkaka The main issue to me from this post is this: Why focus on a single crime committed in severe anger in Basrah. What about the horrible crimes committed daily in the west? With my deepest sympathy to the victim of Basrah tragedy who out of a dreamish mentality lost her way, What if your sister fell in love with an occupying soldier...?
The reason for focusing on that particular crime is that it was a crime that the entire family participated, even the law and its officers praised Abdel Qundara for committing it. The least you can say about the west is that the authorities do prosecute the killer and subject him to a fair trial unlike your own laws that encourage this type of savagery.
_____________________________
God bless the whole world, No exceptions. الدين لله و الوطن للجميع
ORIGINAL: havalkaka I agree with you 100%. What you describe is a fact that I have observed clearly, especially so in city centres when tourists from middle east behave like dogs, eye-raping any woman passing by. It is also a fact in our own countries and is due to segregation and sexual thirst which goes on even after marriage. It routes back to severe sexual deprivation in adolescence. Our new way of life is to blame for that.
It has nothing to do with our so called new way of life. It's called Hypocrisy. Surely this word is familiar to you?
quote:
Do not misunderstand me. I am not puritanic. I am simply showing the facts that people in the middle east don't know or get it distorted. It remains a fact that our society doesn't sanction sexual freedom or gay or lesbian marriage or that filthy homosexulity which even beasts wouldn't like to go for it.
Are you sure you're not puritanic? and which society are you referring to?
quote:
The main issue to me from this post is this: Why focus on a single crime committed in severe anger in Basrah. What about the horrible crimes committed daily in the west?
Erm....I'm just guessing but perhaps because this is an Iraqi forum?
quote:
What if your sister fell in love with an occupying soldier...?
Why don't you offer your own opinion on this one? Although from your earlier posts I bet I can guess the answer.
< Message edited by Lion of Babylon -- 5/22/2008 4:08:32 AM >
_____________________________
"As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others" - Nelson Mandela
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