Lets talk evolution!
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Lets talk evolution! - 4/23/2008 3:07:10 AM
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Lion of Babylon
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Given that many of the recent debates on this forum degenerate into a my religion is better than your religion hissy fit, I thought it would be best to open a thread and ask members to contribute their opinions on a much bigger issue that we have to face every day. Can science, evolution and religion mix?
I think most people would argue that science and religion are irreconcilable and it’s not difficult to see why. Any scientist or evolutionist might have a problem buying into the notion that a man can be born to a virgin mother, or believing in a book that guarantees its followers a path to paradise full of lofty mansions, magnificent food, the finest wines and vestal virgins. To be honest I find many of these so called religious facts a bit hard to swallow. As we become more exposed to scientific studies and theories which are backed by proof through experimentation, why do we continue to follow religious absolutism when it has some many flaws? What’s more, why should followers have no right to challenge these contradictions and fantastical facts just because they were allegedly handed to us by a higher being?
I came across this short video clip which made a lot of sense to me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsPw649qN9I
Comments please!
< Message edited by Lion of Babylon -- 4/23/2008 4:23:37 AM >
_____________________________
"As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others" - Nelson Mandela
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/23/2008 6:12:59 AM
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Calm
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Excellent LOB. I laughed, but in reality I wish I could cry. We are so (Nothing) that we will hang on to anything to make us (Something).
Once someone told me, if we know how the universe was created, by who, and for what purpose maybe we are on the verge of being creaters too.
Our whole being is a mystry. Did god created us so we will worship him? Where is the logic in that? Why does he need to be worshiped? Is that insecure?
Where how when why all questions need to be answered, maybe never. But I know I like to worship someone something we call god.
God created everything in six days, and rested on the seventh. Did they have a watch then, 24 hours, sixty minutes and sixty seconds. Time was measured in by believe by a completion of a task, which might have taken millions of years, or one week. And god rested on the seventh day, was a click of a finger that hard and exhausting? What about now? Six billion people on this earth, half of them fighting, and the rest are wondering what the hell is going on. God must have forgotten us by now, so it seems, he has taken a long vacation this time, and debating one click of his finger, and the whole damn creation is reversed.
But my friends do you ever wonder how tired god is, he create, and sadr kills in his name, and not only that, they demand handful of virgins waiting for them. Poor god, he can't stop clicking fingers.
But, I choose to believe in the mighty one, I choose to believe in my own way without the influence of any religious person. In the last 15 years I had serious illnesses, from Leukemia to cancer of the thyroid. I used my 9 lives, and borrowed another 9 from the cat next door, believe me if I say, someone somewhere is looking after me.
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/23/2008 6:27:54 AM
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Calm
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You will love this one
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nTgeLEWr614
Now will someone challange that? No doubt someone will issue fatwa not to watch this clip. Guess who? The monkeys!!!!!!!!!!!
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/23/2008 9:50:11 AM
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Lion of Babylon
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Calm
But, I choose to believe in the mighty one, I choose to believe in my own way without the influence of any religious person. In the last 15 years I had serious illnesses, from Leukemia to cancer of the thyroid. I used my 9 lives, and borrowed another 9 from the cat next door, believe me if I say, someone somewhere is looking after me.
Hi Calm. I’m sorry to hear about your health problems and I sincerely hope you have completely recovered and are now a healthy as a bull. My question is this; don’t you think it’s the advance of medical science that saved you rather than divine intervention? I think we have to give science the credit it deserves rather than continue to look to the heavens for answers. Anyone suffering from your ailments would not have survived even 50 years ago. Science has now progressed to the point where recreating god’s greatest invention (man) is close to reality. In 1997 a group of Scottish scientists created a cloned sheep. Since then we've cloned sheep, mice and cows, and soon we will have the first human clone. Scientists in South Korea have already created human embryonic stem cells through cloning.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4555023.stm
So if we do manage to create a living human being, won’t we then have the right to call ourselves gods? Or are we already gods? A 21st century human can already fly, levitate objects with magnetism and can make machines magically move with electricity. Now we are on the verge of re-creating ourselves, literally! So what’s next? Perhaps science may one day create the "longevity vaccine" which will tell our cells not to die. Medicine will someday get to the point that death itself won’t matter to the physician or patient. It will also take away the fear of facing our maker on judgment day, thus removing our greatest fear (death). Being in a position to literally choose whether to live or die will lead us to a kind of immortality (just like God).
So why do we continue to rely on old books for our guidance? In time won’t religion be a thing of the past? Can we be expected to believe in fairy tales when science clearly makes what was once impossible, possible?
As I said I chose to open this thread in order to challenge members and make them examine why we cling to religion whilst the scientific argument is ignored and taken for granted. All we seem to do is revert back to the same points blaming one religion or other for certain atrocities and disasters. Whats more, many of the threads concentrate on religious issues that have nothing to do with whats happening in Iraq (the US visit thread being a case in point!). I mean what difference does it really make to our country if US bishops or clergymen are abusing their authority? What difference does it make to us all if someone is a Christian, Muslim, Jew or Buddhist when compared to the advancement of science? There are bound to be some out there who will call me a kafir for thinking in this way but I’m sure that deep down they think about it too.
Look forward to continuing this debate with you and other members of this forum. Cheers bro!
< Message edited by Lion of Babylon -- 4/23/2008 11:02:55 AM >
_____________________________
"As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others" - Nelson Mandela
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/23/2008 12:18:00 PM
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Calm
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LOB yes science did save my life. (thank god)
As humans we need something to believe in, we need leaders to look up on, and we need rules and laws to obey. Whether we are right or wrong in our believes, as long as we not harming fellow man, does it matter whether we argue if there is god or not?
In the world today, people have suffered under brutal governments, under bad managements, the strong taking the last bite of food from the weak. Of course people will seek shelter under the men who claim to be close to the gods. It is human nature, we need to be protected, mentally and physically.
Now we created an uneducated force of ignorant leaders who can say what they like in the name of god, and when people are not sure of whats right and whats wrong, they believe everything their holy men say to them and order them to do.
I don't go to church every sunday, i don't believe in what the church tells to do. I believe in what my brain tells me to do.
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/23/2008 2:03:02 PM
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Harry
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LOB:
Let us not forget the fact that the one who created the clip is nothing but another monkey, in a state of denial, or he thinks he is a better monkey than those around him. He also appears that he hates the rest of the monkeys for what they are doing through the course of the daily lives. That makes the him nothing but a pathetic chimp who is not seeing himself when he looks in the mirror.
I believe one day, science will finally realize that the far left always meets the far right, and that the universe is far to complex to be created from a “NOTHING” after all, how can something come out of nothingness? As you said, it is the advancement of science that saved Calm’s life. However, let’s dwell for a moment here and think. Is science that gave us humans our brains to think with? Or it came with our creation? Regardless of what you believe in, there must be some sort of a powerful entity at the helm of not just our existence, but also the existence of all that is around us. Things do not move by themselves, some sort of energy has to be involved in the process.
A couple of my friends, one is Indian (from India), the other is actually Persian Shi’a, and they have very similar stories. I have known the Indian a little over four years now, but I met the Persian over twenty years ago. Here is his story.
He was just starting a business as an insurance broker, when suddenly without any previous symptoms; he developed some kind of a rash on the right side of his face and neck. He spent months in hospitals, tons of useless medications, and tens of uncertain diagnosis. One doctor diagnosed his case as shingles, another as Aids. Finally the man fell into a coma, just after all his family and relatives tossed him aside and asked the hospital to pull the plug when they heard about the Aids thing. The evening of the day of his coma, we, his Christian friends decided not to give up on him. That night we gathered in our church, all twenty-five of us, we prayed and cried for over four hours, asking the lord not to take him away. The next day we received a call from the hospital that he is awake. We rushed into his room and saw him on his knees with a bible in front of him praying.
It was an unexpected scene, A Muslim praying with a bible at his sight. We waited until he was done and stood up. We helped him into his bed. It turned out that the night before he dreamt of a man with white clothing put his bloody hand onto his face and told him not to worry; his friend’s prayers will be answered. He said, “this morning is the first day of my life, I have given a second chance, when all my family and relatives have given up on me; my Christian friends pulled me out from a certain grave. Today I accept Jesus Christ as my savior”. Less than a week later the rash started to clear up just as mysteriously it appeared.
My Indian friend’s wife has developed ovarian cancer; every single physician gave her no more than a few months to live. Her husband wasted all his life savings on her health concern. Like the Persian, his Christian friends and neighbors kept praying for her when even her parents abandoned her. We all helped during his monetary difficulty, we never gave up praying for him, her, and the whole family. To keep this story short, the woman has completely recovered, and still alive more than three years after she was given just a few months to live. That family is again a Christian family now.
These two stories are indeed not the rule; they might very well be the exceptions.
Believing in the ability of science should not make anyone drift away from believing in the one superior being in any form.
Calm:
I thank the lord for your recovery, so we had the Privilege of knowing you.
God did not create us for the sole purpose of worshiping. We were created because god was (supposedly lonely), of coarse, not according to the Greek and Roman mythology. All the worshiping that we are doing today is for one reason only (at least in my opinion) that is to keep remembering our creator, (whether you call him god or nature) who gave us life or at least was the cause for our existence. Also thanking that great power with the great abilities which we do not possess, for us having all those great feelings, of happiness, caring, loving, sharing, and most of all just being.
God did not forget us; we are the ones who forgot god, and the reason for us being. That is why we are doing all these horrible things to each other. Some admitted their mistakes, corrected their ways, and moved on, others are still thinking that they are god’s favorite, and decided to eliminate everyone else who have not join their bunch.
I am a believer in creation, nevertheless, I also believe in science and limited evolutionary process. Each has it’s own place in our lives. Believing strongly in God should not make us non-believers in science, and vice versa.
_____________________________
God bless the whole world, No exceptions.
الدين لله و الوطن للجميع
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/24/2008 3:37:00 AM
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Lion of Babylon
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Calm and Harry. Thanks for your great contributions. I found your replies to be very interesting and more importantly, personal. As you know I was born into a secular Muslim family and have always viewed myself as a Muslim although I don’t actively practice my religion. Over the years I’ve become disillusioned with religion and my dissatisfaction is due in part to what is happening in Iraq. What I now see is that Islam and other religions bare no relevance in today’s society. Churches and Mosques are full of corrupt individuals who are only interested in manipulating and squeezing money out of the poor saps that lap it up and think they're going to be saved. Religion also tells us we are the sole occupiers of this universe, and this doesn’t allow for the possibility of other life in the cosmos. In my opinion religious absolutism has tried to hamper the advance of science, whilst at the same time have used and gained from the use of new technology. It’s now my view that religions were created in ancient times to keep uneducated peasants in check and give them false hope by promising a better afterlife for those who adhere to its rules but things have changed and we now want answers based on proof rather than hearsay. As I said I was born a Muslim, it wasn’t a matter of choice. From a very early age all my religious teachers used their subject to instill fear into us and we are told repeatedly that we would go to hell for this or that. In a blink of an eye they then switched their mantras to say that religion was placed on earth to spread love and peace. So if this is the case why not teach us religion and then give us a choice of whether to believe in it or not? How can something that promotes peace and harmony be forced on us with threats of internal damnation should we choose not to follow it? It just doesn’t make sense to me anymore. After all in this day and age we should all be perfectly able to tell the difference between right and wrong. Our laws and government are in place to enforce the law; parents and schools are there for teaching children the basic premise of what is good and what is not. I don’t think we need holy books for this purpose given that they were written back in the day when we were all still riding donkeys and believing that the world was square. Guys, this is just my opinion and I do respect that you both have faith in your religions. I also think that much that’s written in the bible and Quran is very beautiful when taken out of the context of absolute truth. However when taken absolutely these writings are easily manipulated and then become nothing more than a vehicle for politics and big business. We have now moved on as thinking beings and should question absolutism at every opportunity, whether it is based on religion, art or science. As long as religions are absolute in their nature then I am going to view them as part of history rather than relevant to my life today. As Clam said, we all need to have something to believe in but spirituality comes in many forms these days and is not dependant on religions like Islam or Christianity.
Harry: My reasons for starting this were to draw such discussions into one thread rather than have them pop up in other political discussions. If you feel this is inappropriate then please feel free to lock the thread. However I hope you don’t do this just yet.
Cheers bros.
_____________________________
"As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others" - Nelson Mandela
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/24/2008 8:38:41 AM
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Lion of Babylon
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Evolution in politics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXajXz4DF1w
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"As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others" - Nelson Mandela
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/24/2008 10:56:52 AM
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Calm
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I hope I didn't come from the one tooth man, he is ugly!!!!
I believe in the evalution I am a scientist after all. But there is a strong link between religion and science. Taking out the time factor, then we'll have no problem in saying there is a creator, like uncle Harry said, and I agree with you that many but not all holy men/women are not so holy. And, whatever they are they should stay out of politics, because they haven't got a clue.
I have seen so many miracles throughtout the years Harry, not only to christains but various religions. I was taught by a french priest, no matter what religion a person is, the door to heaven (peaceful retirement) is open to everyone, as long as they did good towards their fellow man.
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/26/2008 4:18:54 AM
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Lion of Babylon
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Calm
And, whatever they are they should stay out of politics, because they haven't got a clue.
Amen to that. We can keep dreaming but I'm afraid I don't hold much hope given most clerics in Iraq do have some form of political agenda and financial backing.
_____________________________
"As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others" - Nelson Mandela
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/28/2008 9:33:29 PM
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NeoBabylonian
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Hahaha awsome video and topic LOB, and I totally agree with the video except for one little bit - what monkies can kill so indescriminately and think of other monkies as lesser monkies, or less important than their kind? Sure they hang around in different groups with different Alpha males etc... but do they ever think other monkies of other clans are lesser monkies like us?
It's such a shame that as a species that was once at the bottom of the food chain, constantly being mauled by a lion here and a bear there, we came to the top of all animals, only top start fighting amongst ourselves to become higher up in the perverbial foodchain than our fellow humans. Why do we always need to dominate something new, can't we all just be happy as being equal humans? Can't we all accept that humanity is superior to patriotism and the various other imaginary grops we all put ourselve into?
But by far the biggest tragedy of humanity is that we seem to need the fear of death from something or someone to 'unlock' our best potential, whether it be Terrorists or Americans ready to break through the gates, kill us and rape our women. It might be that nature that has encouraged us to go to so many wars, as that seems to be the only was we advance. I mean so many of the best inventions were created out of fear of death. Yet we can achieve greatness by working together in peace, like the wheel, fire and writing. Just imagine how advanced we'll be if we worked together rather than against one another, but is hyper-advancement what we want? Wouldn't we all rather live in the good old days and suppress those baby-eating, wierd fetish-loving, Godless, commie, unpatriotic scientist types?
Sorry about that random rant, but I've got this week of from work, and I'm staying up till 3am for some Ebay-bidding. My sleep, caffienne-hyped brain can't think of anything more relivant. 
And by the way, I posted that clip on another forum, sorry for forgetting to ask your permission first LOB, but I did give credit to you for finding it. 
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/29/2008 1:37:04 AM
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Proton
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If we're going to open a thread on this subject, then lets also open a thread called 'Lets talk gravity!'
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/29/2008 1:57:31 AM
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Proton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Harry
I believe one day, science will finally realize that the far left always meets the far right, and that the universe is far to complex to be created from a “NOTHING” after all, how can something come out of nothingness?
Two points:
- The universe did not begin as a complex entity.
- Science cannot explain the beginning anymore than theology can (even though I'd rely on the former for a more logical answer).
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/29/2008 2:22:22 AM
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Calm
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Can't we believe blindly for the sake of driving ourselves crazy on how it all started. You can argue and argue, and at the end we wasted time, and wasted good old calories.
We are here, but how do we make the best use of being here? do you think we are going into a cycle. The north and south poles are melting, soon it could be 10 years or 50, the earth will be completely covered with water. And we need a new Noah, and a new ark. 6 billion people got to stop breathing and emitting CO2. We got to stop producing children, and follow china's law of one child per family. Sex must be banned for five years, so no children are born. Can you imagine the earth shaking violently on the day the ban is over?
I find it hard to accept what once we were, and to where we ended now. The real evolution is how in the last few years, we became hunted for our believes, hunted for our race, we became a target to some crack pot to shoot us for the sake of target practice, except for suicide bombers, I bet they can't do that twice!!!!!
I feel the whole world has gone crazy, and we began accepting ugly behaviour as part of the daily dose of bad news. Evolution.....?
I still don't like the one tooth skull, never grew on me, ugly.
< Message edited by Calm -- 4/29/2008 7:38:53 PM >
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/29/2008 2:53:34 AM
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Lion of Babylon
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Hi everyone. Thanks for your contributions. I only have time for a quick post but would like to ask you if you believe that the world was created 6,000 years ago? According to what I know about Christianity this appears to be the general consensus (please correct me if I'm wrong). If this is correct then it would discount the Jurassic period and make all the scientists that discovered dinosaur remains and the museums that exhibit them a bunch of *@#* liers. Now given this is taught in the majority of schools these days then how do parents deal with the dilemma of explaining the religion versus evolution theories to their kids?
_____________________________
"As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others" - Nelson Mandela
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/29/2008 9:15:03 AM
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Calm
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Hi
I really don't know where the 6 thousand years came from. I was always brought up to think that what was in the past measured as a day, could be a week, a hundreds days, it was not what we know now of 24 hours. In other words, its a period of time, simple explainable answer. By knowing that, I have no problem in accepting the scientific facts.
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/29/2008 10:09:51 AM
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Harry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Proton
Two points:
- The universe did not begin as a complex entity.
- Science cannot explain the beginning anymore than theology can (even though I'd rely on the former for a more logical answer).
1- I did not say that the universe started as a complex entity, in fact, I said science claims it started out of nothingness.
2- Theology never attempted an in depth explanation for the creation of the universe, science is still trying without any success, or any solid evidence. All we hear from it are a bunch of theories from people who think they have evidence.
Theology described the creation with simplicity to the people who lived at the time, life was simple, and people were living simple lives. Detailed explanation was unfit for them; thus the simplicity of theological words.
Do you think if the bible had theorized that there are billions of planets in the universe, and that the moon is also a planet, or a black hole became so dense that it exploded and spit out all these galaxies, people would have understood and accepted it? After all “black holes” are a mystery, even for today’s scientists.
_____________________________
God bless the whole world, No exceptions.
الدين لله و الوطن للجميع
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/29/2008 12:39:09 PM
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Lion of Babylon
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Calm
Hi
I really don't know where the 6 thousand years came from. I was always brought up to think that what was in the past measured as a day, could be a week, a hundreds days, it was not what we know now of 24 hours. In other words, its a period of time, simple explainable answer. By knowing that, I have no problem in accepting the scientific facts.
Hi Calm,
I got the figure from a Christian friend who said that Adam and Eve were created 6000 years ago which I thought was interesting. Then I looked it up and found the following:
quote:
Some Christians believe that the Earth is "young", on the order of 6,000 to 10,000 years old, rather than the age of 4.6 billion years calculated by modern geology using geochronological methods including radiometric dating. Young Earth creationists typically derive their range of figures using the ages given in the genealogies and other dates in the Bible, similar to the process used by James Ussher (1581–1656), Church of Ireland Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland, when he dated creation at 4004 BC. Ussher's chronology, published in 1650, has been subsequently revised many times, most recently in 2003 by Larry and Marion Pierce. Young Earth creationists believe that life was created by God 'each after their kind' in the universe's first six normal-length (24-hour) days. Additionally, they believe that the biblical account of Noah's flood is historically true, maintaining that there was a worldwide flood (circa 2349 BC) that destroyed all terrestrial life except that which was saved on Noah's Ark. (Barry Setterfield proposed in 1999 that the flood occurred much earlier around 3536 BC.) They assert that this global flood caused a multitude of geological features that scientists regard as evidence of an old Earth.
I then found various other references which made similar claims. This ones from the British Center for Science Education:
quote:
Friday 13th May 2005, Andy McIntosh: "Why Creation is Important"
This was more an impassioned sermon than a lecture. The speaker's voice rose to its highest pitch when he declared that The Bible is Always True. Genesis is history not poetry. The world was created in 7 actual days, 6000 years ago. The most revealing point to me was an illustration of the Garden of Eden built on a charnel house of bones, to show that the Creation could not have been the result of prior evolution, since it was idyllic. It was only after "the fall" that death entered the world and animals became "red in tooth and claw". Precisely how this surprising effect of Adam and Eve eating the apple came about was not made clear. It was maintained that the express purpose of evolutionists is to undermine the Bible, because they are first of all atheists and secular humanists. - Report by George Jellis on the Leicester Creation Conference
Andy McIntosh is probably the best known of the creationists in British academia. He is a Professor of Thermodynamics (basically chemical engineering) at the University of Leeds. McIntosh is also an uncompromising young earth creationist (YEC) whose work appears on the website of the YEC organisation Answers in Genesis (US) at http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/origin-of-attack-defense-structures
What do you think?
_____________________________
"As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others" - Nelson Mandela
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/29/2008 12:42:48 PM
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Lion of Babylon
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NeoBabylonian
Sorry about that random rant, but I've got this week of from work, and I'm staying up till 3am for some Ebay-bidding. My sleep, caffienne-hyped brain can't think of anything more relivant.
What are you bidding on?
quote:
And by the way, I posted that clip on another forum, sorry for forgetting to ask your permission first LOB, but I did give credit to you for finding it.
Its OK bro, I only found it on youtube so theres no copyright charge.
_____________________________
"As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others" - Nelson Mandela
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/30/2008 6:05:13 PM
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forstier
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Calm;
The "six thousand years" comes from a passage in the new testament that reads such "..one day with the Lord is as a thousand years for man....".
That does not really clear anything up. How come the ancient patriarchs lived for nearly a thousand years? {Blame it on the appearance or dissappearance of the ozone layer}.
And get this - the first assumption you have to make in order to use Carbon dating is whether the earth is older than or younger than 30,000 years. Neither resulting time scale correlates well with either ancient scripture or scientifically derived time lines.
And if Theodosius Dobzhansky was right, how come there are no new species evolving - in fact we are discovering more previously unknown species than are "evolving" {theory of evolution contains a catch phrase - it's not a new species if the removal of the conditions leading to its evolution lead to its reversion- every newly created species so far has failed this test and reverted by to its prior form upon removal of the triggers.}.
AND!!! If evolution is occurring, then there should be more species today than in the past. The evidence is just the opposite. We appear to have far fewer species today than in previous eons.
If I do not collapse in my bed tonight I want dearly to talk about this further. Great thread!!!
Forstier
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/30/2008 7:05:21 PM
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Proton
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quote:
And if Theodosius Dobzhansky was right, how come there are no new species evolving - in fact we are discovering more previously unknown species than are "evolving" {theory of evolution contains a catch phrase - it's not a new species if the removal of the conditions leading to its evolution lead to its reversion- every newly created species so far has failed this test and reverted by to its prior form upon removal of the triggers.}.
Evolution does not forbid 'reverting' species. Progressive complexity is usually a trend correlating with evolutionary time, but its not necessary. There are cases where species remain 'simple.' As long as it the organism's survival is optimized, then there is no problem.
quote:
AND!!! If evolution is occurring, then there should be more species today than in the past. The evidence is just the opposite. We appear to have far fewer species today than in previous eons.
But thats just relative, it doesnt imply anything for evolution. There were mass extinctions in history and the taxa you see today are the genetic descendants of those early survivors. In fact, it pefectly synchronizes with evolutionary predictions, because theory says that in cataclysmic natural events a few survivors remain and they continue to evolve and reproduce through time.
But, looking at population numbers, alone, is an implicit factor for measuring evolution.
< Message edited by Proton -- 4/30/2008 8:24:39 PM >
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/30/2008 7:33:58 PM
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Proton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Harry
1- I did not say that the universe started as a complex entity, in fact, I said science claims it started out of nothingness.
2- Theology never attempted an in depth explanation for the creation of the universe, science is still trying without any success, or any solid evidence. All we hear from it are a bunch of theories from people who think they have evidence.
Theology described the creation with simplicity to the people who lived at the time, life was simple, and people were living simple lives. Detailed explanation was unfit for them; thus the simplicity of theological words.
Do you think if the bible had theorized that there are billions of planets in the universe, and that the moon is also a planet, or a black hole became so dense that it exploded and spit out all these galaxies, people would have understood and accepted it? After all “black holes” are a mystery, even for today’s scientists.
1). But you centralized the statement around the 'unexplained' complexity of the universe, today, as we know it.
2). Yes, thats the difference, though, between science and theology. The latter gives you an unexplained answer of satisfaction whilst science attempts to seek explanations (even if it hasnt succeeded yet). Everything starts with theory, but the degree of explicability matters in the end.
As for your last paragraph, I think thats very apologetic thinking. There are very bizarre and rationally untenable parables in religions (from the trinity all the way to Muhammad ascending to heaven), which the primitive people uncritically accepted. They subscribed, not because it was logically digestable but because they were credulously told to - irrespective of how seemingly incomprehensible the divine proposition was.
So, from black holes to apostles performing the physically impossible, the rational distinction would have been negligible compared to the magnitude of faith binding the believer to the belief.
< Message edited by Proton -- 4/30/2008 8:43:23 PM >
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/30/2008 9:32:20 PM
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forstier
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Proton;
Being an old fart I can claim that they changed the rules {or assumptions} since I was in school and concede your point. Still, the non-reversion makes sense, particularly when we point to the total absence of new species in the past 10,000 years. The non-reversion requirement is tested {and may have been replaced by} a requirement that for a species to be defined, reproductive opportunity with its "cousins" must be absent.
And yes, most species arrive and dissappear in waves and not continuously over time. But, many species have arisen in a near continuous fashion.
I think but do not know that a major reason for the number of species is ecological. The survival of a species depends on an adequate environment favorable to its growth. As long as a particular ecological niche is well occupied, it is difficult for another species to develop unimpeded into it. There is a defined number of ecological niches in this world and they are generally not continuous {ie, water ends, land begins-different niche, forest ends, grassland begins -different niche, and yes some niches vary continuously into another with no real edge}. so, the millions of possible combinations of species is dratically reduced to the number of ecological niches available on any given planet. {Clarification - a single ecosystem can support large numbers of species {hence food chains exist within ecosystems}
Combine that with the fact that most combinations of biological attributes are not viable and offer no competitive advantage - five legged horses and three eyed fish do not gain sufficient advantage to overcome the cost of resources needed to support them. This acts as "friction" in evolution.
Anyway, thats what I think.
Best to ya Proton
Forstier
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RE: Lets talk evolution! - 4/30/2008 10:39:37 PM
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forstier
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Lion;
At a given point in time, religion and science may not be reconciled. But neither science nor religion is perfected so the time for judging it may not yet be ripe. I say that hoping that the state of religion is more a reflection of our our state of imperfection and not Gods’.
I love your comment about already being Gods. I think we are not yet there though, with disastrous evidence lying everywhere to prove it.
I think we can become perfect in a particular thing. But here’s the hitch. The price I pay for becoming perfect in any one thing is that everything else is ignored and falls apart. I was a perfect husband once, for about fifteen minutes, but , one of my kids got in trouble, and I was late for a meeting. I think God can be perfect in all things, while we are only capable of one thing at a time. And for a short time only.
I agree with your point the ancient scriptures were written for the ancient peoples and their relevance to us today is questionable. These ancient scriptures span long time spans. They also seem to show ongoing additions and continuing development of themes. I think I benefit from studying these scriptures, but anyone looking for a scripture to replace individual thought and decision making will quickly come to a bad end.
My greatest peace comes not just from scripture, but from the words I hear at church, from the counsel of people I trust. It comes from people of different religions than mine, it sometimes comes from examining evil. But one thing remains – I must consider all these things but I must think it through for myself.
Lion, good luck in relieving the other threads of religious discourse. For some, religion is the same thing as God and they worship it. God has said that we can have no other Gods before us and that includes religion. And it has been made such a part of their lives that it cannot be separated from politics, economics or anything else.
Calm;
If God is our heavenly “Father”, then I think you are right about God being tired. My kids wear me out, they also bring me to greater levels of anger than anything else in my life. They also leave me frustrated, proud, pleased, disappointed, and after all that, really, really tired. And each day the vey first question remains unanswered – “where in the world did you come from?”
But you talk about the big “why” questions. I believe I am here to gain a body and then with that experience. To what end do we do that? We have an impossible commandment -“..be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father in heaven.”
And what you said about creation seems right on the mark. It is said that in any profession we first learn to recognize what we work with. We then move on to learn how to describe it. From these apprentice steps, we then learn to break what we see into parts. For me in Forestry, I learned to describe the parts of a forest –the trees, the groundcover, the soil, etc. But there is more, the next level of professionalism is to take the parts and create something new and better. My better was to take red pine, which usually grows on sandy soils, and grow it on rich loam soils. This step, creation or synthesis is still not the highest level of a profession. That is reserved for the teacher.
But., I think your quote is right. When we can create worlds, we may just be at the level the “perfect” commandment directs us to be at. But you know I think that even then, God will still be so far much more perfected than we, that we will not be his brother, but still will be his children, and he our father.
And Calm, I am searching the internet right now to see if any religions profess to cats having more than 9 lives for you. I agree with Lion to being thankful you are here.
Regards.
Forstier
< Message edited by forstier -- 5/1/2008 11:04:48 AM >
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