Dear Calm I understand we both live in the UK. I am sure you know all too well about all the footie hooligans here. Everytime I see them, they seem more and more to be the same people - Iraqi hooligans, who at some point managed to procure all sorts of military hardware.
I think those chanting, shoot-in-the-air hooligans aren't in themselves bad or evil, nor the real threat from Sadr. Not even he takes them seriously. I think the real danger are the hard-line, fascist, twisted and sadistic leaders close to Sadr, and their highly trained, paramilitary combatants, the guys who actually blew up the Mosque rather than the idiots singing about it.
And aren't they Muslim too, why the hell did they blow up their own place of worship? Even if it was a Sunni mosque, wouldn't it be so much more productive to just take it over if they really are fighting for Shia Islam? This is just senseless mass-vandalism. Notice the new Glock 17 pistols they are all using, and the military helmet one of them has. Wonder where they came from with such an army as ours... Take Care.
< Message edited by NeoBabylonian -- 4/18/2008 10:27:51 PM >
Posts: 462
Score: 11 Joined: 10/26/2004 From: California Status: offline
And we were hoping that one day we can go back and meet on Abu-nawas and reminisce. Not only the American troops are destroting the country, but also its inhabitants. So why oh why should I go back and live with those monsters?
Never I will be proud of my Iraqi hritage. never.
_____________________________
God bless the whole world, No exceptions. الدين لله و الوطن للجميع
No, no bro, not those soldiers, I was talking about the idiots in the second clip you posted.
I have to slightly agree though with the what the first soldier was talking about, globalisation played and is playing a much larger role in this war and general US policy than most of us would like to think - it wasn't all just to 'liberate us'.
The rest of the clip, and what those sadistic, twisted psychopaths are doing to our people is disgusting. I can't believe there are humans like that. They don't even deserve that label in my opinion.
And to your question, I believe the only thing protecting them from the evil of both US soldiers and terrorists is the mercy of those evil brain-wahed men. It seems not even God is willing to protect us.
Take care my friend, and thanks for the videos. BTW, I'm also really interested in your book that LOB has been talking about. I'm sure it will be fantastic with all the very intelligent and thought-provoking things you post here. I was wondering is it possible to tell me what it's generally about, or if it's OK send me a few exracts. I'd really appreciate it, as now I'm more curious than ever. Thanks you very much Calm.
My idea of who is protect who? no matter where they came from. I find the whole ordeal beyond any imagination. I sent a video to LOB about how women are treated in Iran, which really upset me. As we were brought up to put women first.
I didn't know how to put that video on here, I just hope we don't follow Iran for the treatment of women.
My book has been accepted today in New York by a very known Agent. I hope he could manage and sell it to a publisher. And 90% of the time they are successful.
Watch the space my friend, I will email everyone once its published. Its a big book 165,000 words.
Today our friend Sadr threaten to go into open war against the government. Its time he should be shown the red card, because he had more yellow cards than anyone else. I wish he starts loving football. Who is protecting him?????
Wasn't this, the same community which stoned that poor innocent girl in broad daylight last year...she was only 17...seems like the sins of the past sometimes visit us all too soon... just an observation. (Comments from a reply on the posted link (your Link))
She was stoned for converting to Islam, and marrying a Muslim
Dear MOTB: No Iraqi community was anywhere near as brutal and evil as a lot are today. Everyone from the Muslims, Christians, Yezidies etc... are becoming more and more intolerant and hatefull of their Iraqi brothers and sisters. What has driven us all to this, and when will Iraqis see that this is all playing into the divide and conquor plans of outsiders keen on exploiting us and what's ours?
I believe no Iraqis deserve to be killed, or to be so shamefull to our people by being racist. intolerant and hate-filled. But I agree, with your very good point bro, it isn't just some Muslims in Iraq who are becoming extremist, but people of all groups are falling into the lies and propoganda of extremism which has caused so much suffering.
Dear Calm: That is very good to hear my friend, I am really looking forwards to reading it.
Dear NeoBabylonian, A Pleasant Day, Yes it is true , and that was my entire point when I posted the reply, hence I was thinking to discuss the matter in a more open fashion, let’s start with the thread and change the name of the thread as I believe that the name will cover only the shell or the skins of the subject, how about , What is the drive for intolerance in our society?? The Iraqi society has been the best example for religious and ethnical tolerance in the region, inter community marriages between different faiths and sects is the perfect prove for this, hence why the sudden change and who is to blame for that.
Posts: 462
Score: 11 Joined: 10/26/2004 From: California Status: offline
It is obvious who, and what started the whole thing. Who started killing the people of other sects, Who stripped the women off their rights and forced them to cover themselves regardless of their beliefs? Who threatened other religions to convert or die? Who force-removed people from their neighborhoods for having different way of life? Which group hated which, earlier in time? Who started the kidnapping of innocent children for ransom to pay for more weapons? Just look in the mirror and you will see.
_____________________________
God bless the whole world, No exceptions. الدين لله و الوطن للجميع
I left Iraq in 74, when I was a handsome 21yr old. Throughout my life in Baghdad I grew up with three other friends from the age of 3. We were together for 18 yrs. One shiat, one sunni and the third was greek orthidox. I am a a |roman catholic. Never once religion was mentioned, although one of boy's father was (Allama), he had Phd in Islam.
We slept in each other's houses, we went to the same schools, same university, same bunch of girlfriends, borrowed each other's cars, lived in each other's pockets. We never once thought that our lives would change to this. Can you imagine this happening now?
When saddam came to power, he needed to rule, so he decided to get rid of the opposition in his own party, including the thinkers, and the educated, as well as those who believed in Iraq as a country, not Iraq as a Baath party.
He divided the muslims, and created a rift between them, and the tribes. He created a society that no one trusted another, even from the same house hold. I saw this happening in the early days, and who dared speak out even outside the country, because most people have families back home. He was happy to get rid of all the educated people, encouraging even to leave the country.
That was when the divide started, and when the Americans came, they made the divide even wider. Now we got to wait and see if this senario will run its course.
There is no religion better than the other, but they way the holy books is taught these days is beyond believe. God if you are a believer, will not ask any Religious man to kill those from other religions. Why would he do that when they believe in him??????????? Duhhhhhhhh
Enough competition on who is better than the other, we all come from the same soil no matter where we are.
Dear Harry: I hope you aren't implying it's Islam or especially MOTB who is a great member here. One may equally argue that it was the Christian West's agenda, who bought and helped the rise of Sadam and most politics in the mid-east today, or even you, for trying to blame it so ignorantly on Islam or MOTB and implying Christians are better than Muslims (well that's what it seems like, I really appologise if it isn't).
Dear Calm and MOTB: Very true my friend, I totally agree with you two there. Our society was the best in terms of tolerance, and I regret not living though those times when Iraq was truely a eutopia within the Middle-East. I consider myself an average Iraqi, and I have Sunni, Shia and Syriac Orthodox relatives, which proves the levels of tolerance that must've existed for them to marry each other like that. And thank you both my friends for realising no religion or sect or race is any better than the other, it is great tio see intelligent Iraqis who see beyond the hate propoganda that is infesting our homelands and peoples. Hopefully more people start to see things that way, and hopefully we can escape this trap of hate and violence. Everyone who calls themselves Iraqi is my brother, regardless of race, religion, sect, or anything else - ecven that Chinese guy who opened that Chinese food shop in Baghdad is my brother since he too is an Iraqi national now (I think).
are you hoping for a cheap or free meal one day, what a creap you turned out to be. I hope you don't eat it all and leave some to your brother iraqis.
Put the humour aside. Its time to look at the american and the allies forces in Iraq as a race not part of any religion. By doing that, we might come to realise that we don't all worship the same way.
Can someone explain why all the Pakistanies and Afghanies men have beards, and why women including those gorgeous ones cover their faces? Its in no way part of Islam or the teaching of Islam. One is the home for flees, and the other can't see where they going and keep tripping and falling.
Al Salam Alykom and I wish you a very pleasant day,
Regardless of faith, it was the western supported Bathy’s who firstly introduced the idea of division in one society and that’s including Tariq Aziz, with respect Iraqi women, they were pioneers in getting social justice and equality in the Iraqi society, a society which is mainly Muslim, Women were allowed to walk without cover, drive and travel freely without any restrictions, in contrary to women in some other places, So it is good to distinguish between Islam and Society Traditions which are a specialty for individual countries.
In my point of view is, the world is losing the well and courage to admit or acknowledge the wrongs and evils which are happening on daily basis, and seen by Billions of people around the globe, the sense of uragancy and superiority is dominating the ideologies and faiths, and there is a great tendency to keep the led on anything which might bring out the sting (bad odor) of the past, the Ultimate bravery is in acknowledgment of the wrong and trying to learn and correct our actions, thus following the wrongs and continuing the evils will show a determination to achieve an evil goal, or indeed following a carefully orchestrated policy to justify an end,
Have ever wondered or asked your self why this is happening to Iraqis?? What is the reason for 80 years and maybe more of continuous turbulence in the skies of Iraq?? Coups, blood shed and direct invasion by different parties that consumed the green and grey in Iraq, what is the END which justifies all the evil which we are seeing in Iraq??
My dear Friend I will leave you to reflect on these questions, and wish you all the best in life.
Calm and MOTB: The only thing I can say is I agree totally. I really can't say anything since both of you totally took the words out of my mouth, and explained it better than I ever can, so very well said too. And Calm, with the words that you took out my mouth, you took some food out, which fell onto the floor. I expect a refund and appology, in terms of a cheap (or free ) meal please.
Again, it's great to see such Iraqis exist, and maybe if even just 10% of Iraqis think like you two, maybe Iraq wont be in the joke of a ****hole it's in today. Take care my friends, and I want salt and lots and lots of vinegar with my chips Calm.
< Message edited by NeoBabylonian -- 4/23/2008 4:22:52 PM >
Salt and high blood pressure, vinager good god you better of drink petrol. Have you ever read what vinager does to the stomach.
Anyway, I read somewhere that during Haroon Al-Rasheed rule in Baghdad, the good men of the city came to him and asked him to do something about all the forgien traders and businessmen coming to the city, and harrassing the good women of Baghdad. He in turn issued the law that says all decent women wear the (Yashmak) and the prostitutes stay as they are. Since then women had to cover themselves as part of the religion. Can someone tell me whether its right or wrong?
This is leading to the question of attacks on decent women in Iraq because they not covering themselves, which to me is a matter of choice, and freedom.
It is very unfortunate that the wake up call, comes from the concept of An Eye For An Eye, God favored the humans and distinguished them from other creatures by the ability to learn and decide, and to improve their way of life,
During the exchanged post in the last month or so, and indeed from all the deleted posts, I came to a conclusion that no body is perfect; the deleted posts presented a total and a complete perfect example of how by logic and common sense you will win the biggest arguments ever, NOT by Censor, silence is not an option any more, Tyranny has an unlimited appetite for more restrictions on liberties and also is thriving on human stupidity.
Tales from the old country states that, sour yogurt is very good for stomach upset and, and since yogurt is made of milk, hence milk also is good to cure that, but in reality Milk is very bad for that condition, and might make it worst.
The way people are branded and tagged in the west, and with all due respect from the believers of other faiths is NOT the way that you think!!!!! Especially with the events that led to this mess ( and you should know what I mean) , faith was blamed and people were tagged , and lives have been destroyed, hence spare me this corrupt logic of race, and let me decide on how I will brand the people who are branding me, and who are killing the innocent in Iraq in the same manner.
With respect to the issue of race, No Sir, the race of the occupying forces in Iraq has nothing to do with what is happening in Iraq – they are multinationals i.e. from different ethnic backgrounds, but they have something in common which you might call ideology or faith, The roots for the evil which we saw in Iraq and indeed in numerous parts of this globe, and indeed the evil of continuous negative and destructive interference in the business of other people, is far greater than race issue and it deep rooted in an ideology that considers outsiders as inferior in all aspects of life, and you are fully aware of that,
Then let me ask you a very simple question, Why shouldn’t, I , think in the same manner that people in the west are thinking about me?? Why shouldn’t I use the same logic as it is being used against me?? Ha??? Why ??.
Hearing about your new book and assuming that you belong to the intellectual part of this society, can you answer my previous questions to Neo Babylonian , No I Doubt that!!!!!!!!!
I did answer the question somewhere in this forum. Baghdad was the centre of civilisation for centuries. Early 20th century 25% of the people lived in baghdad were jews, 20% maybe a bit more were Christains, the rest were muslims.
They lived in perfect harmony. No fingers pointed, and being a minority they worked damn hard to survive. They contributed to the way life endlessly, from business, to culture. Their music was brilliant, poetry, schooling and so on.
Came the 1948 war in palestine, and with it, the finger pointed at the jews. I got one thing to say, not every jew is an Israelie, but every Israelie is a jew. And I have a number of jewish friends who we share the same way of thinking. The jews began to escape the country, and now we have less the 40 jewish people in the whole country.
Then came the christains from the north into Baghdad, they built many industrial factories, from clothing, to heavy metal. But, instead of going forward, 1963 began the nationlisation of banks and businesses. The foreign banks became Iraqis, no investment into new industry, or anything else. My dad for example had to stop all expansion of his factory, and began to shut down shops.
Then Saddam came, the oil became our own, but instead of investing in repairs and upgrades, the idiot went to war, and built palaces, and buying yachts and so on. His sons were brought up on eating wild pigs, and go and pray in the mosque the following day. It was a regime built on putting fear into people.
If you keep slapping and hitting young men at the back of their heads, they grow up grow with their head down.
Religion has much to say, but said nothing, whatever religion, they afraid to modernise in case someone somewhere will say (Kafur). Religion our religions were for the people tens of centuries ago, we have developed, yet our religion hasn't.
We are lacking education, not few University degrees, but general education which we were starved of for many many years. Anyone can get a university degree, but how many have worldwide knowledge?
No one is blaming Islam, but ex-muslims. They are committing all sorts of crime in the name of Islam and God, and 95% of the people in the world realise that.
I hope that answers your question, and my fingers a sore now.
The phrase you used, “.. run its course..” brought concern to mind. I do not think it will run its course and peter out. I wish I understood what triggered the divide to happen. You describe in your friendships that differences in religion did not divide, but in the presence of the difference there was peace and genuine companionship. Religion must be the excuse for persons of otherwise evil intent.
Are there people in Iraq with the vision to see what is possible, the courage to sacrifice in favour of that vision, the strength to prosecute it to conclusion? In my feeble mind I know that if the vision is rooted in truth, all we must supply is courage and persistence and we will prevail. We will prevail in ways that are unseen to us, we will be called upon to sacrifice more than we expected, we will see such low moments as one could not imagine, but we will prevail.
I do not know enough about Iraq to predict the outcome, and what I do know I cannot count on, it is not a sure knowledge in my mind. It seems that things have continued falling apart in spite of the presence of many men of honest good intent. It seems that when an obstacle is overcome, another is presented as the true of source of discord, which if overcome will lead to peace. But it doesn’t. It reminds me of young teenagers whose newly found creativity is employed to avoid responsibility for malicious circumstances they encounter. It also reminds me of the story line in the movie “National Treasure” where lifetimes of pursuit were rewarded with one more question, one more obstacle {the movies ending was not true to the theme or reality}.
On faith – faith cannot be a persistent guide for action. Faith, well exercised, becomes knowledge. To ignore the maleficent results of misplaced faith is not an act of religious devotion, but an abandonment of responsibility. Faith can as easily be placed in the hands of a wise and benevolent teacher or a psychopathic criminal. In both cases, we will quickly come to know the truth, and faith can never be used as an excuse for not thinking, for not acting.
I see and read the posts here and know that the elements needed for a successful Iraq are present, that there are Iraqis who not only care but who are capable of leading. I see the strength, the desire, courage, and vision. I do not see what prevents these from rushing through to push a conclusion
So my very first question from my very first day on these message boards remains. What is missing? What can I do – I’m not content anymore to watch and learn.
But please friends, also know this, there are peoples of the world who hope for Iraq the best things, who seek a turn for the better, that your actions on behalf of Iraq may meet opposition, and the price of change may be high, but there are many willing and able to help.
I have missed reading of you these past days, and can only post short as employment duties beckon, but hope to see your posts again soon.
Forstier
< Message edited by forstier -- 4/30/2008 6:46:58 PM >
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