WHO IS THE REAL THREAT??? (Full Version)

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Calm -> WHO IS THE REAL THREAT??? (3/13/2008 7:07:19 PM)

I can't believe that suddenly the Christian's Holy men are a threate to any movement in Iraq.

Throughout history, Christians played a vital role in generating wealth and economic stability in Iraq.  Being a minority, they worked hard to survive, they supported their children in getting higher education, they sacrifice everything they had to ensure that the future of their children is secured.  Most Iraqi Christians kept themselves to themselves, they didn't interfer in the running of the country, and they stayed out of harms way.  Apart of one or two, like Tariq Aziz.

And now, all the churches are bombed, and many holy men are killed, what has been achieved here?

My heart goes to all his family and those who knew him.



NeoBabylonian -> RE: WHO IS THE REAL THREAT??? (3/13/2008 9:08:47 PM)

Well bro you should ask yourself what harm an innocent Shia kid, or Sunni family ever posed to anything. We also work hard and give everything to support our children and ensure the future of Iraq, and also generate wealth and economic stability. This is true of ALL Iraqis bro.

The explanation is very simple, and surprised you haven't seen it already man. Those sick, sadistic traitor terrorist sons-of-****es like to target everyone. Everyone, no matter what race, religion, gender, job etc... is a target as long as your in Iraq - even people of their race and sect who are brave enough to not show them unconditional support.
It was only a matter of time till one of those criminal psychos abducts and kills a such brave Christian who who'll stand up to them, as like you said, they're a small minority. That is why so many equally brave and innocent Sunni and Shia Imams got killed before.

So ALL Iraqis are victims of this violence, carried out by criminals (remember Saddam freed all those criminals before the war. There are no Political prisoners in Iraq as those brave people are murdered straightaway. So those guys are the phychos, degenerates and perverts of our society), straight-up traitors (who give their loyalties to race/religion over country, and destroy their own country for their foriegn masters) and foriegn fighters.
I don't at all believe any group is more at risk than another - maybe except the Kurds up north mainly safe from the anarchy.

Me I'd like to send my condolences to all the faceless, nameless thousand from all races, religions etc... who have been murdered by scum not worth a millionth of them.



sadiq2006 -> RE: WHO IS THE REAL THREAT??? (3/14/2008 7:39:20 AM)

neobabylonian

i agree with you 100%.[sm=smiley20.gif]



MarkOfTheBeast -> RE: WHO IS THE REAL THREAT??? (3/14/2008 10:15:18 AM)

New Babylonian,

I could'nt agree more[sm=smiley20.gif]



abujassim -> RE: WHO IS THE REAL THREAT??? (3/16/2008 4:27:13 AM)

very sorry to all iraqi christains. i think we have no more christain in 5 years. [:(]


Weeping Christians bury Iraqi archbishop
by Mujahid Mohammed
Published: March 14, 2008


[image]http://r.m.metimes.com/md/b2a0d6ae421ec3f2feaaecda5d9c987b.jpg[/image]
This undated handout picture obtained by the Osservatorio Romano agency and dated November 2007 shows Pope Benedict XVI greeting Chaldean archbishop Paulos Faraj Rahho (L) next to Iraqi cardinal Emmanuel III Delly (C) during a private audience at the Vatican. Rahho, who was kidnapped last month in northern Iraq, has been found dead. Delly urged Christians not to seek revenge for the death. (AFP)  KREMLIS, Iraq (AFP) The patriarch of Iraq's Chaldean Catholic church, Emmanuel III Delly, tearfully urged Christians on Friday not to seek revenge for the death of the archbishop of Mosul, whose body was found in a shallow grave two weeks after being kidnapped. The 80-year-old cardinal, who broke down and wept, told throngs of mourners at the funeral of Archbishop Paulos Faraj Rahho in the northern Iraqi Christian village of Kremlis they are obliged to follow a path of peace.  "The people of the church should be self-restrained and patient," he said in Mar Aada church in Kremlis, about 35 kilometres (22 miles) east of the main northern city of Mosul, where Rahho's body was found on Thursday. Rahho, 65, was kidnapped during a shootout in which three of his companions were killed, as he returned home after mass in Mosul on February 29. His kidnappers telephoned church authorities on Thursday to announce that the archbishop had died and that they had buried him, giving the location of the grave. The cleric's body was later exhumed from the site.

"He worked day and night in the church," Cardinal Delly told the mourners on Friday, many of them spilling into the street outside the overcrowded church.
"He was brave, deeply faithful to the service of the church. He spent his life serving the church honestly and peacefully. He was one of those who died and shed their blood for sake of the duty."

After the service, which lasted about two hours, the coffin bearing Rahho's body was lowered into a crypt at the back of Mar Aada, where a church official said other Chaldean Catholic clerics have been laid to rest. It has not yet been announced whether Rahho died from natural causes or was killed -- there were no bullet wounds to his body. But Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki and others are treating the death as murder. The US embassy in Baghdad and the American military blamed Al-Qaeda for the archbishop's death. The website of Christian-sponsored Ishtar television said the kidnappers moved three times during the two weeks of captivity because the area where they were holding Rahho was raided twice. The kidnappers had demanded that Christians contribute to the jihad, or the holy war, that a number of Arab detainees be released from custody and that they be paid three million dollars for Rahho's release.

Rahho was the latest in a long line of Chaldean clerics to be abducted since the US-led invasion of Iraq five years ago. Iraq's Christians, with the Chaldeans by far the largest community, were said to number as many as 800,000 before the invasion. Rahho's kidnapping and death shocked the minority Christian community in Iraq, already victims of sectarian cleansing, killings and kidnappings at the hands of both Sunni and Shiite Islamists, as well as criminal gangs. "It is now very dangerous for Christians," said Samar Sharif, in Mosul. "The terrorists are trying to divide us, but we will not allow them. We cannot keep quiet. We must punish these people."
Another Christian, Joseph Iskander, said the aim of the kidnapping was to "make problems between communities. It is not about money."

Evan Mirza, 24, a resident of Baghdad, said she was too afraid to go to church and had fled from the city's Al-Dura neighbourhood, the capital's historical Christian quarter, under pressure from Al-Qaeda jihadists. "The terrorists are attacking us," she said "I'm living in Al-Qadisiyah neighbourhood. There is no church here and we can't go to another place far from our home, for fear of being killed."
Another Baghdad Christian, who asked not to be named, said he and his family too had been forced out of Al-Dura. "All Christians in Baghdad and Mosul are mourning this disaster," he said. "He was a good person, he liked to help everyone, Christians and Muslims. What did they gain from killing him? They are criminals who want to kill Muslims and Christians for the sake of money."
© 2008 Agence France-Presse



MarkOfTheBeast -> RE: WHO IS THE REAL THREAT??? (3/17/2008 1:09:35 AM)

Christians, were in Iraq before Islam, and will remain in Iraq to eternity[8|][8|]



Calm -> RE: WHO IS THE REAL THREAT??? (3/17/2008 6:05:21 AM)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iJcMXS4ljv8

People are trying hard to spread the word of peace.

Enough is enough is enough. 



sadiq2006 -> RE: WHO IS THE REAL THREAT??? (3/20/2008 9:00:21 PM)

there will be no peace in this world if there are still greedy human beings who wants to get everything, and also until the day comes and the mighty god allah will rule this world in a proper way before the day of jugdement. 



forstier -> RE: WHO IS THE REAL THREAT??? (3/21/2008 5:20:02 PM)

But what I cannot understand is what piece seems to be missing? I am not a student of politics nor of foreign affairs. But I have seen that peace, garnished with freedom and liberty, results from the sacrifices of good men {and women}. In Iraq, it seems we see the sacrifice, but do not achieve the peace.   All of the other elements appear to be there. The sentiment of the people is in favor of peace. Bravery in their execution of effort to build a state is evidenced by the Iraqi people, though it appears to me that so many have emigrated that it is difficult to discern strength in the will of those that remain. I cannot believe that infiltration by religious extremist is so great that it overpowers the will of the Iraqis, but perhaps it is so.   Perhaps it is an unwillingness to accommodate, but I personally have not seen enough to be firm in that conclusion. Perhaps it is not possible for such diverse groups to form a peaceful state, but there are numerous examples where peoples have done just that.   What is it that we should see but are missing?   You know, the “American People” {as if there was such a thing of one mind!!}, may be greatly opposed to the war but our tolerance for its continuation derives from our belief that there is possibly a peaceful end, that if we can invest our effort intelligently we can see the seed of peace planted and nurtured by the Iraqi people.   I think the war has been prosecuted less than intelligently though and we do not see all the things that we must to arrive at a just, righteous, peaceful end.  What is/are the thing{s} we do not yet see? I think that if you provide the right answer you might win the Nobel Peace Prize next year.   We spend far too much time trying to discern who has sacrificed/suffered most as if though that would determine who should lead, or who should receive favor in what statecraft follows or worse, whose actions are justified. That discussion emphasizes difference and leads to division. We, humanity, have paid a price. We, everyone, suffer the loss of companionship of those killed, the loss of great contributions that could have been but will not be. We suffer because the greatness of the peoples of Iraq which is the tap root of our many civilizations has at best been disbursed to every other corner of the world, and perhaps at worse suffers extinction if not ruination.   So I am still vexed. What is missing? I do not know. I do not even claim to have an inkling of an idea.



MarkOfTheBeast -> RE: WHO IS THE REAL THREAT??? (3/25/2008 12:36:11 PM)

Dear Frostier,
 
A Pleasant day, well , I have to say that there is so many ingredients missing, for a start the people are lacking cohesion, Loyalties are different with different sects of people, added the interference of too many foreign hands made the situation highly unstable, it is true people are making the sacrifice but sacrifice without a true plan or a true leader taking those people to the right side is pointless, Saddam Hussien and over 35 years of dictatorship, targeted every scenes  of patriotism in the people of Iraq, injustice added with suppression did produce highly sophisticated selfish people who will sell every thing for the hard currency, added the hardship of long years of sanctions and despair stressed on the issue of selfishness and self reliance,  I makes wonder why the people of Iraq and over the past 80 years have been subjected to blood baths, coups, wars, hardship, division, immigration, and so on. Why?? 
 
It was always the case that you need one of three factors to rule a nation, these three factors are; illiteracy, fear, and financial/living hardship, with respect to Iraq, all these factors are being applied in the strongest terms. [8|]   



forstier -> RE: WHO IS THE REAL THREAT??? (3/25/2008 10:33:50 PM)

MarkotB;   Greetings to you also.  In past years I have fought in my mind to resolve what appears to be the lack of justice in things that I have seen. I do not know if I am just worn down and have lower expectations or have accepted a meager fulfillment of the concept. Justice seems to be the condition where our mistakes are not visited upon the heads of others. Even such a meager expectation goes unfulfilled.
I was driving late at night through the woods to arrive in time for an early morning meeting when I first heard the following. When the stories conclusion arrived, I very nearly drove off the road- not because I was tired but because of the truth that became apparent.
In Romania during 1990, during the collapse of the Soviet Union, there were nightly rallies by the peoples in the downtown square of Bucharest. There were no particular leaders or organization, people just showed up and talked, sang, and chanted. Now I grew up during the 1960’s so knew something of chants. Our chants then were simple slogans, consistent in message, but simple. “Give peace a chance” “peace now”  ‘make war no more”  “make love not war” “peace”.
The chants in the square at Budapest were nothing like that – they were more like ballads “soldiers, drop your arms and join your people” “Ceacescu leave and soon peace will fill your absence”.  Somewhere in the crowd a thought would form and one person would express it, perhaps clumsily. Next two or three people nearby would repeat it, the 10 then 100 then 1000 then 10000, and in unison, the slogan would be the chant of the moment.
There would be an initial cacophony as competing slogan/chants would sound simultaneously and compete, but then one would win out and be taken up by the crowd as a whole.
After many nights of these demonstrations, there was a young mother who wanted to go to the square and be a part of crowd, to feel the spirit, and to give her young son the chance to take part in these historic events. The times were uncertain, and repression was as likely an outcome as a new beginning. Hope, though, long absent, drove past fear and those living in that time and place knew that whatever the outcome these were historic, never to be repeated events. Though winter approached, being there was to be in the presence of liberty’s’ spring awakening.
The young mother parked her small car a block away from the square. Her son, alas, had fallen fast asleep in the back seat of the car. After a moment’s consideration, she decided to allow him to sleep while she went to just take a peek at the events, intending to turn around and return to her sleeping son shortly.
But how do you draw yourself away from such an awakening – it is like witnessing the birth of  a calf for the first time. Revolting, chaotic, messy, but oh so compelling. Soon an hour had passed.   Unfortunately, the sleeping young child, Toivo, had awakened. Seeing he was alone, he became distressed and started to cry. A passing stranger saw the distressed boy and returned to the crowd, seeking out perhaps the loudest moist boisterous participant in the chanting. He explained the boys’ plight and suggested the loud mouthed individual summon the mother to attend her son.
The loud chanter stood intending to do just that, but the words hat escaped his mouth surprised even him ”Sleeping Toivo awakes to the sound of liberty – long may Toivo live in freedom”. In what seemed like an instant ten thousand voices repeated the collection of words, giving them meaning with whatever substance and form that hope lives in.
Each person in his heart acted upon the sure knowledge that they had endured the unendurable, that they had lived without freedom for three generations, but that each was willing to sacrifice all in order that the rising generation, their children and grandchildren, should see liberty and peace.
I sometimes complain that I am not free and held back by the circumstances I am in. I look back at the Romanians and think I am fortunate that my chains were woven by myself and not another. And like the Romanians, liberty’s fire comes from my desire that my children and grandchildren be restrained only by what they employ and not the devices of another.
I look, if not for answers, for a way, for a cause, for a path, for an opening. I read the words written here and it fills me with respect, it gives me hope. I no longer fear false hope or hopes dashed but just rejoice that hope lives. It is the glue that binds across generations and gives cause for sacrifice of generations passing for generations rising. How will this war be resolved - I have hope -that is neccesary but not sufficient.



MarkOfTheBeast -> RE: WHO IS THE REAL THREAT??? (3/26/2008 1:52:20 AM)

Dear Frostier,[:D]
 
A very pleasant day to you my dear friend, and thanks for your expressing reply, I would say that the situation in Iraq can not be compared to any other situation, especially in Europe or indeed Romania as you mentioned, The problem in Iraq is so complex that it is very similar to a jigsaw with thousands of pieces that you have to place all of them in the right place so you get to see the full picture.
A designer engineer when faced with a new design, he has to consider hundreds of different elements in order to come up with a successful design, the problem in Iraq is the same as well, I will try to explain a very small part of this problem and I will leave you to your thoughts.
In the beginning, WWI and WWII (Please read what happened to Iraq after the war), and the disastrous consequences that accompanied this war for the entire globe, problems and injustice probably engulfed every nation on the face of this Globe, and that is including Romania, with respect to Iraq, Iraq was under a British mandate, the British encouraged lords, the cream of the society which in turn these lords enslaved people to work for them, people were illiterate and very poor (Factors-from my previous reply), hence the Iraqi society witnessed the creation of the elite families, those families were so rich (Money is power-Factor) that each one of them had hundreds if not thousands of peasants working for them, added, Oil being extracted from their own land to fuel the luxury machines in the west and to assist the west in the modernization process while there was nothing in return for them,
Then the rising power of the US, and the start of a new era in global conflicts and domination, in the beginning it was a conflict between the Americans and the British over the control of Iraq, hence we saw a series of Bloody coups materializing in Iraq, each time with a different backing power, the final coup, was the coup of Saddam Hussein in the year 1979, which was heavily supported by the CIA,
I also have to mention the attitude of the west towards Muslims and Arabs in general, which started to change significantly when Palestine was given to Jews, illegally, and the domination of faith in the West and Christian political world, so the policy was engaging Iraq in a long conflict to destroy every possibility that this nation could rise to become powerful, 1980 Iraq started an eight long years war with Iran, then 1990 the occupation of Kuwait, then desert storm, and desert fox, then operation Iraqi Freedom, then the sea of terror and instability which engulfed the country, to the current day.
 
My dear friend the most important (factor) which you have mentioned in your reply are the PEOPLE, it gives me a great joy to see that Romanians are alive and in control of their destiny, in Iraq the situation is different, the people either dead or semi dead, and if some one to surface with alive idea’s, he would be crushed to death, and from the beginning people were discouraged from shaping their destiny, through different means and (factors), it is like the gathering of friends and foes to isolate people from politics or disassociate them from looking to the problems in their daily lives, and this policy is in use to this day.
Iraq is a very important country; it is a biblical land, which I would dare to say that, this land is the cradle of (ALL) civilizations, added the (Geopolitical) importance of this land, it makes this land, the center of attention for every occupying power on the face of this earth.                        
Feel free to comment, as I said in the beginning the problem is very complex, and can not be explained in a short text or not even a book either, so I trust than you will read and try to gather information’s from different sources, looking forward to see your reply.
 
 
Wish you the Best,
 



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