Freedom of Speech (Full Version)

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MarkOfTheBeast -> Freedom of Speech (3/12/2008 6:05:02 AM)

In the wake of the insults on Islam and the prophet Mohammed (PBUH) do you consider the initiated insults as freedom of speech?? or do you consider any replies to these insults as divisive allegations??[:)]



Lion of Babylon -> RE: Freedom of Speech (3/13/2008 4:04:34 AM)

There are two points to deal with re this matter. On the one hand it’s not possible to dictate how a none-Islamic country views Islam or any other religion. As long as the cartoons are not printed in an Islamic country then they should be ignored rather than publicised. The only thing that the Islamists accomplished by burning flags and sabre rattling is to turn a little known Danish cartoonist into a world known figure (perhaps this was a PR stunt by the Danish newspaper?). The level of protests would suggest that the Islamists have conveniently omitted to explain to their respective followers that the Danish government has nothing to do with this as the government is not connected to the media, unlike in many Muslim countries. Blaming a whole country for the actions of one small newspaper seems ridiculous to me. On the other hand Freedom of expression is not an absolute freedom and does not extend to libel and false statements made knowingly, which damage a person's reputation. We all treasure free speech and the liberty to speak our minds. But it’s a crime to falsely shout "Fire" in a public place and cause panic so I think the newspaper that printed these cartoons are equally guilty knowing how Muslims hold their Prophet in high regard.

For me this whole issue has been blown way out of proportion and we should be concentrating on much more important issues. I mean what do you think generates more intolerance against Islam, these caricatures or pictures of a hostage-taker slashing the throat of his victim in front of the cameras or a suicide bomber who blows himself up during a wedding ceremony or funeral? The Islamists should be organising mass protests against such cowardly acts and not focus on some stupid cartoon which would have faded into obscurity had these fools not given it notoriety.



abujassim -> RE: Freedom of Speech (3/16/2008 4:19:03 AM)

what do u mean freedom of speach? we do not know this words in Iraq. what we know is only yes sir from sadam to now. na3am seedi. if ppl speak about sadam they disapear. if ppl talk about sadr they disapear. if ppl talk about shahrastani they disapear. what is this freedom of speach?



MarkOfTheBeast -> RE: Freedom of Speech (3/17/2008 12:49:33 AM)

Dear Abujasim,
 
That is indeed a very hard question to answer, Freedom of speech could be defined as ((Marghat Bamia)) which is cooked with Tammer Hindi that has not been cleaned of it’s stones, you have to eat it very carefully and slowly so you do not break your tooth, Freedom of speech is a right granted by the international laws for every human being on the face of this planet but rarely practiced but governments in the left or right. So cool down and always remember ((Where Ever You Go The Sky Is Blue)).[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]
 
العزة لله والوطن والشعب



abujassim -> RE: Freedom of Speech (3/23/2008 1:53:23 PM)

freedom is security. this is the freedom we need not democracy usa style. i want to go home and sleep with easy mind and normal troubles not worry about bombs and killing. may be the sky in yr country is blue. in my country it is full of helicoptr and usa war planes.[:(]



MarkOfTheBeast -> RE: Freedom of Speech (3/24/2008 4:36:16 AM)

Dear Abujassim,
 
Hahahahahahaha, so it is full of Helicopters ha?? In between those Helicopters, surely you would be able to see the sky, which I hope that it is blue, although there might be lot’s of smoke in the air, but still you should be able to see the sky.  [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]
 
wish you all the best.



abujassim -> RE: Freedom of Speech (3/25/2008 8:35:38 AM)

thank u. good luck 4 u 2.



MarkOfTheBeast -> RE: Freedom of Speech (3/26/2008 9:10:35 AM)

Dear Abu Jassim,
 
You can always ask 3ammo Bush, and Khaloo Abu Naji to clear the skies for you so you can see what’s going on.[:D]



Proton -> RE: Freedom of Speech (4/2/2008 7:39:57 PM)

What intrigued me about this whole ordeal was the following Islamist-premise: dont say Islam is a violent religion, or we'll cut off your heads!

By my standard, insulting/mocking/criticizing beliefs qualify as freedoms of speech.  In a liberally, post-enlightened society - having your 'feelings hurt' by someone else does not constitute a crime.

For example, I despise Saddam Hussein to the very bone.  But in my ideal vision of Iraq, I believe someone should have as much a right to express their support for Saddam as one would have the right to condemn him.  In such a society, the offender and defender are equals.



MarkOfTheBeast -> RE: Freedom of Speech (4/3/2008 10:42:17 AM)

Dear Proton,
 
Keep your vision to yourself, and Proton is a rubbish car , just try it!!!!!! [:D]



abujassim -> RE: Freedom of Speech (4/4/2008 5:29:10 AM)

what has this car got 2 do with anything? welcome proton. why did u chose this name? i rhink yr answer will help markotb to change back from cars 2 politics. thank u



abujassim -> RE: Freedom of Speech (4/4/2008 5:34:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Proton

For example, I despise Saddam Hussein to the very bone.  But in my ideal vision of Iraq, I believe someone should have as much a right to express their support for Saddam as one would have the right to condemn him.  In such a society, the offender and defender are equals.


this is very nice dream proton but i think u must c the reality b4 u decide this is best 4 iraq. saddam is like hitler. do u think it is ok 2 like hitler? also do not forget hitlar was 60 yrs ago. saddam is still fresh in his grave. do u think it is ok to say i love saddam in iraq after wat he did? pls think about it.



forstier -> RE: Freedom of Speech (4/6/2008 3:43:21 AM)

Markotb, my friend, I hope tomorrows sun shines peace if not also prosperity on the head of you and your family.



I think there is a misconception about freedom of speech – that it is a right to speak without fear of consequence. Perhaps it is. I know people who speak as if their words would bring them no consequence. I do not see that it has made them any more free than those who speak with consideration and restraint. What brings results is speech that recognizes the circumstances of reality, which renders action in support of the ideas it proposes. When Patrick Henry {from US Revolutionary war era} said “give me liberty or give me death”, he also expressed another principle about freedom of speech. That principle is that it is not without consequence and sacrifice. The highest form of free speech is to “speak truth to power”. There is always a consequence – but to achieve anything requires some measure of sacrifice. We pay a price to accomplish things – and it follows that a great price must be paid to accomplish great things. Freedom is sustained by courage – free speech is not speaking anything you want without fear of consequence, it is speaking the truth in spite of the fear of consequence. And further, it demands that it be effective speech when spoken, for it is otherwise a vain sacrifice that neither expands freedom nor draws out justice.   I understand the difference in the repression wreaked by evil governments that make the consequences so great that it is a foolishness to speak or perhaps even to think. But as we look to free speech as a marker of a free and peaceful society, it is important that we understand what the term means. It does not mean we are free to speak without consequence, but that we are free to speak and enjoy the blessings, and suffer the cursings, that result.



MarkOfTheBeast -> RE: Freedom of Speech (4/6/2008 5:43:24 AM)

Dear Frostier,
 
A very good and Pleasant day to you my friend,
 
To be honest with you we got used to cloudy skies, it doesn’t matter or indeed make any difference if the sun shines again, the rain coat is always at hand, for the start my family are all executed by the previous Iraqi regime, and if you ask me, and as a result of this, I had the most miserable life ever… so I speak without FEAR OF ANYONE or considering anybody except God and I have proved that on a number of occasions[;)].
Even in the society that you live in, there is no such a thing as freedom without being penalized with consequences, that is what we call Gibberish, If I was an American Citizen for the start , I will not be able to say George Bush is a WANKER ( wanker is a man which always stroking his sausage) , an evil Psycho path maniac who snuffer’s from multiple personality disorder, Why?? Because my freedom will not be as you say specking without consequences… Specking of Hollywood could you please go back and do some research on (((HOLLYWOOD BLACK LIST)))[8|], and see the consequences for freedom of thoughts and speech, and that is in best democracy and the beacon for freedom in the world, the best concept that a human being could use in this world is logic and common sense, these two concept when combined will give an idea of what is going on, so spare us the impossible. [:D]    
 



forstier -> RE: Freedom of Speech (4/6/2008 2:38:21 PM)

Markotb;   I am saddened to hear of the fate of your family. I cannot claim to know how you feel. I only know how much my family means to me and what affect their loss would have upon me. I do not wish such circumstance on anyone.   I will remark that in the face of such tragedy, you remain remarkably full of life and a passion for the truth. If I were to face such circumstance as you describe, I think I would look to your example in how to respond.   On those occasions when I have had to supervise the work of others, I have always been somewhat hypercritical – the people that worked for me, though we were all professionals, did not do things the way I wanted them to without a lot of intervention on my part.   At first I supposed that the fault was education, and that by spending massively on training I would see the desired results.   The short form of this story is that I was concentrating on how things got done and not on what got done. Through fortunate experience I saw that all of my employees failed to perform well at some point – those that were of the most value in the long run were not the ones that knew the most or were technically most skilled, they were the ones who recognized that something different needed to be done and worked to make that change.   The incident you speak of illustrates it well – the McCarthy black lists were merely the end of a long list of black lists that seemed to spring up from time to time. The black lists were developed by cowards who were afraid to use their own judgment and relied on a black rule to bully others into following their erroneous thinking. From the McCarthy episode, we have come to recognize such efforts on the part of our legislators and the expression of such lists has become greatly suppressed. The people who spoke up and effectively destroyed McCarthy were not without consequence – for many careers were destroyed. But we have destroyed a nuance that no constitution addressed. That was as much a sacrifice for freedom and liberty as the death of a soldier on the front lines.   I am no particular fan of democracy. When something better comes along, I can embrace it. I am distraught at the ways people abuse and misuse their right to vote. The basis upon which they decide whom to vote for is distressing in the absence of reason and effort of thought. The politicians we get are either corrupt cronies or naïve children on their way to becoming criminals. But the checks and balances minimize the carrying costs of having these thieves close to the treasury. It isn’t perfect. It isn’t pretty. But for us in this country, it beats what we had and it’s better than anything else I’ve seen – and each year it does seem to get better in spite of major occasional steps backward.   PS – I am living now in the high desert. I moved here from the coast of Canada/Maine. I had a rain coat for the days when I stood in the same vicinity all day, a different rain coat for when I was doing heavy work, another rain coat when I had to travel great distances through the woods. There was a rain coat for days spent driving in the rain, another for days when it was raining, cold, and windy, even another rain coat for days when there was freezing rain. All of these rain coats are now hanging in my closet unused because people here do not need nor even own rain coats!     It is not much to offer, but I have pondered on the words you have written. I believe if your family was present that they must be proud of what you'r doing and the strength of character you have developed.   PS – I am not sure how Hollywood enters into the discussion. It is so largely removed from reality that I suspect it is being run by aliens. The politics of Hollywood also makes US political shenanigans seem innocuous by comparison.



Proton -> RE: Freedom of Speech (4/6/2008 11:16:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abujassim

quote:

ORIGINAL: Proton

For example, I despise Saddam Hussein to the very bone.  But in my ideal vision of Iraq, I believe someone should have as much a right to express their support for Saddam as one would have the right to condemn him.  In such a society, the offender and defender are equals.


this is very nice dream proton but i think u must c the reality b4 u decide this is best 4 iraq. saddam is like hitler. do u think it is ok 2 like hitler? also do not forget hitlar was 60 yrs ago. saddam is still fresh in his grave. do u think it is ok to say i love saddam in iraq after wat he did? pls think about it.



Jassim, in a democracy the system is not designed as to optimize truth, because truth is relative to the individual.

Democracy is the most stable resolution for differing ideas and opinions, whilst avoiding conflict.  That is why we have freedom of speech, expression, and so-forth.  So, its not about whether its 'ok to like' person A.  In a democratic context, the latter is an invalid question to pose.  Its about whether you have a right to like/defend person A (and democracy says yes you do).

Ergo, it depends on what you are defining here.  If you want to postulate a free-democracy, then it doesnt matter who you like or despise - irrespective of how intellectually lacking your reasoning might be.  You have the freedom to promote cruel, benevolent, optimistic, and pessimistic opinions as long as they are not imposed on others.

As far as whether those opinions are 'right' or 'wrong', that is not for democracy to settle.  That is for human beings to address by exercising our democratic tools through the wrestling of minds and ideas.



abujassim -> RE: Freedom of Speech (4/7/2008 1:52:25 AM)

proton. remember we r speaking about iraq. i understand yr point but is democracy good 4 our country? we must c wat happened to iraq after this 5 year democracy 2 c the results. it looks like this democracy is not good 4 us. we have 2 make our own democracy and this will take time. may be it will never happen because the ppl do not understand or want it. i think i must now ask this question. do arabs do democracy? i think it is 2 complicated 4 the time being. also the usa model is not good 4 iraq. it is 2 early 4 us. i min we have dictatorship and the next day democracy. this dos not work!



MarkOfTheBeast -> RE: Freedom of Speech (4/7/2008 8:51:40 AM)

AbuJassim,

Arabs love Demmo Al Crassy which is the expanded version of Democracy.[:D]



Proton -> RE: Freedom of Speech (4/11/2008 4:49:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abujassim

proton. remember we r speaking about iraq. i understand yr point but is democracy good 4 our country? we must c wat happened to iraq after this 5 year democracy 2 c the results. it looks like this democracy is not good 4 us. we have 2 make our own democracy and this will take time. may be it will never happen because the ppl do not understand or want it.


Well, although I addressed your question in consideration of relating it to Iraq - I really specified it in its universal form.

As far as freedom of speech is concerned in a constitutional democracy, I stand by what I said.

I dont know what is Iraq's fate.  You are correct, evolving democracy in that country will be a gradual process and I'm sorry to say that the negative influence of religion, tribalism, and political interests (which ironically surfaced through the flux of popular democracy) have impeded this process.

quote:

i think i must now ask this question. do arabs do democracy? i think it is 2 complicated 4 the time being. also the usa model is not good 4 iraq. it is 2 early 4 us. i min we have dictatorship and the next day democracy. this dos not work!


I think Arabs still are living in a different age (irrespective of the politics, which is often alluded to as an explanation), one which is ignorant of intellectual enlightenment.  The Arab world only understands the absolutism of ideology, rather than enlightenment (akin to the European models from the 17th century to the present).

Until Arabs understand the intellectual power of freedom of the individual conscience, liberal democracy will not be compatible with their way of life.  If they are happy, let them live in peace.  But there is no way this old-earth thinking can co-evolve with democracy - which is the premise of the question.



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