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Hanibaal Khaddam -> Antoun Saadeh (3/1/2007 3:54:55 PM)

As today, March 1, is the day that Antoun Saadeh was born, I would like to introduce members here to the thought established by this man, who offered a solution to all our national ailments.  I would like reflect on our current situation, and how Saadeh's teachings can offer us a solution to our social and national ailments.

As we continue to find ourselves pitted against each other, with each side increasing their hatred toward the other side, let us remember Saadeh's words that our country "perishes with hatred, and flourishes with national brotherhood." As we witness our increasing division and fragmentation, let us reflect on Saadeh's statement "The nation and the state knows not in the state but citizens equal in rights and duties." And while we continually engage in endless arguments about our national identity, we might consider Saadeh's position that "The reality of nations is not built on mere desires amongst some people, but rather on true bases which they must discover."

Saadeh came into our nation to create a national renaissance that would eliminate our reactionary and backwards social mentalities, and instill in us a sense of national consciousness, through which we would fortify our national unity and put an end to our previous woes. He came to eliminate our particularistic ambitions, such as sectarianism, tribalism, and selfish individualism, and replace them with a national spirit that works toward serving the interest of the nation as a whole.

Saadeh was the first and only thinker in our nation to put forth a well-planned, clearly structured ideology aimed at rejuvenating our society. He was the first and only leader to offer a viable solution to our national problems, with a clear understanding of all issues facing us as a nation. His Eight Basic Principles and Five Reform Principles form the foundation of our renaissance and serve as the basis for transforming us from a traditional, stagnant, divided society, into a modern, dynamic, unified, forward-thinking nation, that would once again occupy its rightful place amongst the nations of the world.

Just as we had once led the world in intellectual innovations and scientific breakthroughs, we could once a gain act as such contributors to human culture and global advancement. Saadeh stated that our nation had "all science, all art, and all philosophy in the world," meaning that we as a people were capable of producing and contributing in all those fields, just as we had previously. What we lacked was national consciousness and faith in our abilities. The latter of course was a symptom of the former.

Therefore, on this day, I ask all of our citizens to put their predujices aside and read Saadeh. I ask our citizens to look into the Social Nationalist philosophy and discover for themselves the cure it offers to our social ailments. While many of us have tackled a lot of the issues we currently face with superficial treatment of symptoms, regardless of how good our intentions may be, the only possible way we can move forward is with a cure to the disease, which was offered by Saadeh.

While certain groups in the nation are busy launching attacks on each other, the position of the Syrian Social Nationalist Party, as spelled out by Saadeh, is that "We have no time to waste on verbal arguments and unhealthy bickering. The interest of the nation is a sacred matter to us and nothing in the world will distract us from serving the national interest."

You can find our more about Saadeh and the Syrian Social Nationalist Party at www.alqawmi.com




Calm -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/2/2007 1:50:24 AM)

Salam my friends
I don't want to sound negative at all, but what do you want us to do here, praise another party from Syria, praise the man, adapt his politics to ours?  I read his website, I am afraid that we have better and more intelligent politicians who know our people, know our country and know how to make Iraq a powerful country again, not militarily but economically. 
We have so much to offer, but first we need to get those low life mullahs and their brainless armies and millisha out of the way.
Thanks for your input.




al ani -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/2/2007 2:06:54 AM)

salam alikom
I think you came in wrong way,please return back.




azinorum -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/2/2007 2:39:04 AM)

I've come across various reports about Saadeh and I know he was a secular arab who rejected Arab Nationalism and believed in expanding the Syrian Nation. I do agree some of his ideologies, like his idea that a country should not only be identified by its language and religious preference. However given that Saddeh's doctrines and ambitions were not limited only to Syria anyone implementing his Social Nationalist Party ideals would have had to think about invading Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, Iran etc, etc, I think you get the picture. This would only have lead us into another era of dictatorship and wars. As long as theres an expansionist road map, there is more war and repression.

Iraq needs a secular government that focuses on recovery and national unity. After establishing security Iraqis should them draw up a 20 year plan to introduce democracy through its education programs. This way we can establish our own democracy according to our own values and traditions. Iraqis have to accept that democracy is not ready for Iraq and visa versa, not now anyway. We should however aspire to be a democratic country and this can be achieved by having a long term plan. Its time we found our own way without following other Arab thinkers or Islamist leaders. Syria should start thinking along those lines before its too late. Saadeh advocates expansionism and his ideology is not in Iraq's best interests. In fact its in no ones best interests. Thanks but no thanks!!

Here is a quote taken from Wikipedia:

"Saddeh rejected Arab Nationalism and argued instead for the creation of the state of United Syrian Nation or Natural Syria. Initially he thought of this as equivalent to historic Syria. In a later revision of his premises, he extended it to include Iraq, making up a Syrian homeland that "extends from the Taurus range in the northwest and the Zagros mountains in the northeast to the Suez canal and the Red Sea in the south and includes the Sinai peninsula and the gulf of Aqaba, and from the Syrian sea in the west, including the island of Cyprus, to the arch of the Arabian desert and the Persian gulf in the east."  

By the way, welcome to the forum.




walid2007 -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/2/2007 10:47:55 AM)

If we could pay attention as regards what Hanibaal Khaddam tried to focal point about Saadah’s clarification “The reality of nations is not built on mere desires amongst some people, but rather on true bases which they must discover."
 
So we must discover and determine! We should find out…
 
Finding has a place in relation of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking, so did we access on what Saadah has thought?.
 
!!!




Hanibaal Khaddam -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/2/2007 1:06:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: azinorum

I've come across various reports about Saadeh and I know he was a secular arab who rejected Arab Nationalism and believed in expanding the Syrian Nation. I do agree some of his ideologies, like his idea that a country should not only be identified by its language and religious preference. However given that Saddeh's doctrines and ambitions were not limited only to Syria anyone implementing his Social Nationalist Party ideals would have had to think about invading Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, Iran etc, etc, I think you get the picture. This would only have lead us into another era of dictatorship and wars. As long as theres an expansionist road map, there is more war and repression.

Iraq needs a secular government that focuses on recovery and national unity. After establishing security Iraqis should them draw up a 20 year plan to introduce democracy through its education programs. This way we can establish our own democracy according to our own values and traditions. Iraqis have to accept that democracy is not ready for Iraq and visa versa, not now anyway. We should however aspire to be a democratic country and this can be achieved by having a long term plan. Its time we found our own way without following other Arab thinkers or Islamist leaders. Syria should start thinking along those lines before its too late. Saadeh advocates expansionism and his ideology is not in Iraq's best interests. In fact its in no ones best interests. Thanks but no thanks!!

Here is a quote taken from Wikipedia:

"Saddeh rejected Arab Nationalism and argued instead for the creation of the state of United Syrian Nation or Natural Syria. Initially he thought of this as equivalent to historic Syria. In a later revision of his premises, he extended it to include Iraq, making up a Syrian homeland that "extends from the Taurus range in the northwest and the Zagros mountains in the northeast to the Suez canal and the Red Sea in the south and includes the Sinai peninsula and the gulf of Aqaba, and from the Syrian sea in the west, including the island of Cyprus, to the arch of the Arabian desert and the Persian gulf in the east."  

By the way, welcome to the forum.


azinorum,

Many people have misunderstandings about Saadeh and his philosophy, due to the fact that they have obtained their information on Social Nationalism from sources other than Saadeh and the SSNP.  However, just to clarify the position of the Party, Saadeh did not want to impose anything on anyone, and we definitely do not advocate the forceful creation of an all-encompasing Syrian entity.  We believe everything stands on the will of our people.  However, we do believe that Saadeh's philosophy is the solution to all our ailments, and we therefore exercise our right to preach and disseminate this philosophy to all our people. 

You said that Iraq needs a secular government that focuses on recovery and national unity.  Well, this is exactly what the SSNP proposes.  The 5 Reform Principles of the SSNP are the following:

1. Separation of Religion from the State

2. Debarring the clergy from interference in national political and judicial matters

3. The removal of barriers between the various sects in the nation

4. The organization of the economy on a productivity basis and the protection of labor rights.

5. The creation of a strong military capable of deciding the fate of the nation and state.

Again, Saadeh did not come to impose a particular political system on our people.  Rather, he intended to raise our awareness to our national unity, so that we may act according to our national interest.  He did not come to destroy the current entities in our nation, but rather to fortify and strengthen our national unity.  If we act outside of this national unity, then we are only hurting ourselves.  However, if based on our analysis of our national interest we decide that the nation should be made up of various states, for example, represented by the entities we currently have, then so be it, so long as we do not undermine our national unity and harm our national interest.

Our nation, as you know, has experienced one disaster after another.  This, in large part, is due to our lack of national consciousness, which has left us weak and divided, and an easy prey to foreign ambitions.  Just take Iraq right now, and look at the mess we are experiencing, which all relates to our sectarian, ethnic and tribal divisions.  We need a new outlook, where we view all our people as citizens of a single nation, equal in rights and duties, with no discrimination against anyone based on their sectarian or ethnic background.  This is why Saadeh stated that "the nation and state know not in the state but citizens equal in rights and duties."  That is, a conscious nation and state representative of the national interest do not care about your religious, ethnic, sectarian, or tribal background.  Rather, they treat all citizens as equals and work to further the interest of the nation as a whole.

If we were to implement such a system in Iraq today, think of all the disasters that our people there would avoid.  However, this cannot happen when our people continue to view each other as members of different groups competing for power on a single piece of land.  Such an attitude and mentality is bound to extend our misery and suffering. 




azinorum -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/2/2007 1:11:21 PM)

Hanibaal: Are you Iraqi or Syrian or neither?




Hanibaal Khaddam -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/2/2007 1:15:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Calm

Salam my friends
I don't want to sound negative at all, but what do you want us to do here, praise another party from Syria, praise the man, adapt his politics to ours?  I read his website, I am afraid that we have better and more intelligent politicians who know our people, know our country and know how to make Iraq a powerful country again, not militarily but economically. 
We have so much to offer, but first we need to get those low life mullahs and their brainless armies and millisha out of the way.
Thanks for your input.



I would like to focus on this last sentence you wrote, for it is absolutely correct.  We do indeed have so much to offer; all our people do.  What we need is to focus on and strengthen our national unity so that we may act in furtherance of our national interest.  Read the above reform principles of the SSNP and determine for yourself whether such reforms would be for the benefit of Iraq as a whole.  Those "low-life mullahs" as you called them would have no place in a secular system, as proposed by Saadeh, where there is separation of religion from the state and the clergy are barred from interference in national political and judicial matters.




Hanibaal Khaddam -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/2/2007 1:19:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: azinorum

Hanibaal: Are you Iraqi or Syrian or neither?


Although I don't believe it should matter, I am Syrian-Lebanese.  My father is from Al-Qamishli in Syria and my mom is originally from Tripoli, Lebanon.  In fact, when my dad is with one of his good friends from Mosul, I realize how we really all are the same people, and it pains me to see that we have created such barriers between each other. 




azinorum -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/2/2007 1:28:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanibaal Khaddam

quote:

ORIGINAL: azinorum

Hanibaal: Are you Iraqi or Syrian or neither?


Although I don't believe it should matter, I am Syrian-Lebanese.  My father is from Al-Qamishli in Syria and my mom is originally from Tripoli, Lebanon.  In fact, when my dad is with one of his good friends from Mosul, I realize how we really all are the same people, and it pains me to see that we have created such barriers between each other. 


The reason I asked was that you referred to Iraqis as our people. First do you mean we are all Syrians, Lebanese or Iraqis? Do you consider yourself the same as an Iraqi Kurd or Iraqi Shia? What exactly do you mean by our people? My last question is what do you think of the Syrian government stance towards Iraq?




Hanibaal Khaddam -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/2/2007 1:38:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: azinorum

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanibaal Khaddam

quote:

ORIGINAL: azinorum

Hanibaal: Are you Iraqi or Syrian or neither?


Although I don't believe it should matter, I am Syrian-Lebanese.  My father is from Al-Qamishli in Syria and my mom is originally from Tripoli, Lebanon.  In fact, when my dad is with one of his good friends from Mosul, I realize how we really all are the same people, and it pains me to see that we have created such barriers between each other. 


The reason I asked was that you referred to Iraqis as our people. First do you mean we are all Syrians, Lebanese or Iraqis? Do you consider yourself the same as an Iraqi Kurd or Iraqi Shia? What exactly do you mean by our people? My last question is what do you think of the Syrian government stance towards Iraq?


I believe we are all the same people, whether Iraqi, "Syrian", Lebanese, Palestinian, or Jordanian.  Now, the name used historically to refer to this region was Syria, and therefore when Social Nationalists use the term Syrian we use it in reference to all our people across this region and not simply to what is today the Syrian Arab Republic.  As for Kurd, Shiite, or any other group, Social Nationalism does not differentiate between our people based on their ethnic or sectarian background.  We view all members of our nation as equal parts of a single society.  This is what differentiates Social Nationalism from other forms of nationalism, such as ethnic or racial nationalisms, which tie the nation to a single particularistic group. 

As for the stance of the Syrian government toward Iraq, I am not a supporter of the Baath regime and disaprove of its policies whether inside the Syrian Arab Republic or outside,  mainly because this regime has proven to be ineffective, corrupt, and only interested in preserving itself irrespective of the consequences.  And I believe its positions toward Iraq are formed on the basis of what is in the best interest of the regime, rather than what is in the best interest of the Iraqi people and the nation as a whole. 

The above should not imply that I in anyway support a US-supported change of regime in the Syrian Arab Republic, for I believe our goal is not to change a regime for the sake of changing a regime, but rather to install something better and more representative of the national interest.  I don't want to see another group of our people delivered from one evil to another one.




azinorum -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/2/2007 3:56:22 PM)

You are referring to the Syrian of the early 1900’s, a golden Era for Syria when it controlled Jordan and Israel (Palestine) but things have changed somewhat since then. There was no real Syrian Nation, Arab Nation or any other Nation for that matter. Arabs of Christian and Muslims faiths have too strong and separate identities to have ever become a one nation. These regional aspirations are totally unrealistic in today’s world and always appear to have ulterior sinister motives? I don’t have enough independent background info on Saadeh or his party to pass judgment and I do see how attractive some of Social Nationalist doctrine can be to Iraqis in today’s climate. There are certain points that I strongly believe in such as separation of religion from the State and debarring the clergy from interference in national political and judicial matters. These are very worthwhile initiatives for Iraq at the moment. But it’s the fundamental premise that Syria should be an all encompassing Arab nation doesn't’t sit well with me. It gives the impression that SN actually does believe that Syrian Arabs are held in higher regard than Iraqi Arabs for example. Our histories differ, as does our social and ethnic mix. We are simply not the same and failure to recognize this is the first mistake. I believe Iraq has to move away from this type of Nationalism and find its own identity and we can't achieve this until we recognize,understand and respect our differences. Democracy is the only way to achieve unity. Don't judge democracy by what is happening in Iraq today. It just came too early for us and its initial failure doesn't mean it can't succeed eventually. Nationalism is a step backward and we've come too far and lost too much to sink into that trap again. I will however make it a point to look further into SN just out of interest.




Hanibaal Khaddam -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/2/2007 6:00:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: azinorum

You are referring to the Syrian of the early 1900’s, a golden Era for Syria when it controlled Jordan and Israel (Palestine) but things have changed somewhat since then. There was no real Syrian Nation, Arab Nation or any other Nation for that matter. Arabs of Christian and Muslims faiths have too strong and separate identities to have ever become a one nation. These regional aspirations are totally unrealistic in today’s world and always appear to have ulterior sinister motives? I don’t have enough independent background info on Saadeh or his party to pass judgment and I do see how attractive some of Social Nationalist doctrine can be to Iraqis in today’s climate. There are certain points that I strongly believe in such as separation of religion from the State and debarring the clergy from interference in national political and judicial matters. These are very worthwhile initiatives for Iraq at the moment. But it’s the fundamental premise that Syria should be an all encompassing Arab nation doesn't’t sit well with me. It gives the impression that SN actually does believe that Syrian Arabs are held in higher regard than Iraqi Arabs for example. Our histories differ, as does our social and ethnic mix. We are simply not the same and failure to recognize this is the first mistake. I believe Iraq has to move away from this type of Nationalism and find its own identity and we can't achieve this until we recognize,understand and respect our differences. Democracy is the only way to achieve unity. Don't judge democracy by what is happening in Iraq today. It just came too early for us and its initial failure doesn't mean it can't succeed eventually. Nationalism is a step backward and we've come too far and lost too much to sink into that trap again. I will however make it a point to look further into SN just out of interest.


I would like to clear up some misconceptions here.  First, nationalism, to us, is not contradictory to democracy.  Nationalism is merely the awareness of one's national identity.  So by being a Syrian nationalist, I am merely displaying my consciousness of my Syrian national identity.  Once we become aware of our national identity, then we can move forward and act in furtherance of our national interest.  As such, we would build a democratic state, whereby the interest of the nation as a whole would be protected.  Let us not forget that the great democracies of today are indeed nationalistic, in that their people are conscious of their national identity, and view all members of their society as equal members of a single nation. 

Second, regarding our identity as Syrians, this does not merely go back to the early 1900's when Syria had not yet been divided into the entities we have today.  Rather, this has to do with our reality as a society, which developed through thousands of years of social interaction across this single piece of geographic territory historically referred to as Syria, and named by the Arabs "The Fertile Crescent". 

What differentiates Saadeh from other nationalist thinkers in our nation is that he studied and came up with a scientific definition of a nation before determining what national identity his people were.  To Saadeh, a nation is a group of people who, after a period of social interaction and intermixing on a particular piece of land, and through a process of evolution develops characteristics differentiating it from other groups.  Then, applying this definition to our region, Saadeh found that the people of the "Fertile Crescent" form a single socio-economic unity.  That is, historically, the people inhabiting this region naturally moved back and forth across it and engaged in interaction and intermixing with each other (horizontal interaction), as well as interaction with the land on which they lived (vertical interaction), until they formed a single distinct character.  For this reason, we see that the people of this land continually had identical religions, an identical literary heritage, various unifying political entities, and a general unity of life, manifested in our social and economic life-cycle, which included uninhibited movement of products and the common use of natural resources in our industries.  In addition, our unifying political entities tended, historically, to expand to the natural boundaries of the Syrian homeland and stop there, such as under the Assyrian and Babylonian Empires.  And when they did move beyond those borders, they would naturally return to them once the state lost its power, such as under the Syrian Seleucid State.

On a more practical level, if you look at our homeland today, you tend to see a clear manifestation of a socio-economic unity, regardless of how much we deny it.  As I said before, my father, who is from Al-Qamishli in today's SAR, displays no different characteristics from his friend who is from Mosul, Iraq.  My fiancee, who is from Mashta el-7elou in SAR displays no different characteristics from my sister's husband who is just across the border in Lebanon.  Moreover, we continually witness a natural movement of people back and forth across our borders even today. 

What we intend is to strengthen this national unity we have in order to serve our interest.  Our lack of national consciousness has led us from one disaster to another.  It is crucial that we stop undermining our national unity.  This does not mean that we should now form a single political entity across the region.  Rather, it means that we should remove the barriers we have placed between us and benefit from our single life-cycle.  We can begin by opening up to each other and creating an economic unity across this land, which will be of tremendous benefit to all our people and immediately boost our economic strength.  This is what we mean when we speak of Syrian nationalism and not a preference for "Syrian Arabs," as you say.  In fact, the name Syria originates from Assyria and is used by us to refer to our entire homeland and to all our people without any discrimination whatsoever against any group. 




Ahmad Aown -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/3/2007 9:08:18 AM)

azinorum
In your Post you have raised Many Valuable points without any elaboration or explanation on your conception of such.
Accordingly, I would like to ask you the following:
1- what is a Nation?
2- what is Democracy?
3- What is Nationalism?
4- What are Values?
5- What is Interest?
6- What is History?
7- Define Identity?

However, I would like to Praise your Objective and Humble approach in admitting that you do not have enough independent background on Saadah's Ideology, and your intention to Look Furhter into the Social National Ideology.

Knowing that each of the above seven querries require a lot of elaboration, still I suppose the purpose of joining this forum is to learn, and contribute to the awareness of others.
Please take your time to enlighten us here on your conception of the above and we are all ears ready to Learn.
Thanks.




azinorum -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/3/2007 10:12:42 AM)

Thanks for the history lesson. Although your subject matter is interesting, it’s not that interesting to warrant my discussing it in further detail on an Iraqi forum. I have to tell you that I don't subscribe to your version of history nor do I think this type of fascist ideology offers any solution for Iraq. The last thing we need to do is follow another Syrian academic. We'll have to find our own identity from here on in. Perhaps I’ll come over to your website some time and we can discuss it there. You both sound like fully paid up party members and your sales pitch is a little on the heavy side. Salam




azinorum -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/3/2007 10:19:48 AM)

Whats your URL if you have a AS forum? Regards Azinorum




Ahmad Aown -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/3/2007 11:21:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: azinorum

Thanks for the history lesson. Although your subject matter is interesting, it’s not that interesting to warrant my discussing it in further detail on an Iraqi forum. I have to tell you that I don't subscribe to your version of history nor do I think this type of fascist ideology offers any solution for Iraq. The last thing we need to do is follow another Syrian academic. We'll have to find our own identity from here on in. Perhaps I’ll come over to your website some time and we can discuss it there. You both sound like fully paid up party members and your sales pitch is a little on the heavy side. Salam


It is Obvious that a prejudgement from your side does not favor an intellectual Debate. not to mention that the questions raised do not address the Republic of Syria, Neither do they address the Republic of Iraq. Yet, They address a clear Vision of what the Iraqis should and shouldn't believe in, because obviously the Iraqi Issue is not about Democracy, Religion, Politics or Occupation.
The Iraqi Issue is about Identity.
And here is a little secret to you and all beloved Iraqis. If you seek Unity, Unity is not a Dream, it is a result of Thousands of years of Socio-economical Interaction between the people of a particular Region that is called Natuaral Environment.
Unless you start addressing this issue in the right Manner, before you can advance towards achieving your dreams and quest for a better Life.
Think about it and try to figure out why the Iraqis are killing each other, why the Iraqis think Secterian Not National, why the Iraqis are easily penetrated by the Occupation's Interest Preference, Why the Iraqis could not Stand as one before and during the U.S Invasion and occupation?
Are these issues Valuable enough to consider?
Finally My Brother, If you think that we are Fully paid Party Members, then you would have committed two mistakes:
1- you don't know anything about us personally, neither do you know anything about our Ideology, (Maybe what Wikipedia tells you which is too shallow to consider).
2- It is not the Purpose of this thread to Focus on people rather on Ideology. the reason why we should not Involve personal feelings here.
Thanks

P.S
I shall Reply to the 7 Querries I raised earlier. 




Ahmad Aown -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/3/2007 11:28:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: azinorum

Whats your URL if you have a AS forum? Regards Azinorum


http://www.esaadah.com/ 
You are welcome at anytime.




sadiq2006 -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/3/2007 11:51:46 AM)

my dear Hanibaal Khaddam
 
there was no such as borders around mesopotamia only from the 1940's started it was (badiyat al sham) mountain region near mediteranion sea (roman sea) as they call it before al qamishly city it is originally iraqi city (mesopotamian) and hence all the rivers dijla and al furat that is in turkey and in syria it is all all all all for iraq (mesopotamia), those invaders british and the french they divided mesopotamia (iraq), and now they want to divided again for what for everyone to a god and the mesopotamians to suffer until the day of judgement comein this nuts it is mesopotamia (iraq) from 8000 or 7000 years ago till now only mesopotamia.  
 
  [image]http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby56GpelFvLYAFDCjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=12ch9u3r0/EXP=1173026566/**http%3A//www.ucm.es/info/antigua/Cartografia/hammurabi.jpg[/image]

[image]http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby4a7pelFEocA5QajzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=12b0j7sl1/EXP=1173026619/**http%3A//lrrc3.sas.upenn.edu/popcult/MAPS/mesopotamia.jpg[/image]

[image]http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby6HmpelFBOoABB2jzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=12n5jla7a/EXP=1173026662/**http%3A//edsitement.neh.gov/lesson_images/lesson622/Mesopotamia01.jpg[/image]

[image]http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby4QRpulFdnEBbRejzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=14at2vld9/EXP=1173026705/**http%3A//home.intekom.com/southafricanhistoryonline/pages/classroom/pages/projects/grade5/lesson4/Images/mesopotamia.jpg[/image]


[image]http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby6IvpulFJaAAXFyjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=12gvo3dsb/EXP=1173026735/**http%3A//www.bible-history.com/maps/maps/mesopotamia_trade.jpg[/image]


from haran and from diyar baker and from th uppor uppor uppor north of mesopotamia this is all all all all iraq, this is how it should be (NOT THOSE CRAZY BORDERS DISCUSTING BORDERS) FROM THE BRITISH AND THE FRENCH, NO THIS MESOPOTAMIA FROM HARAN AND FROM DIYAR BAKER THIS IS IRAQ AND IT WAS NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER KURDISTAN NO NO NO KURDISTAN, THIS IS ALL ORIGINAL IRAQ (MESOPOTAMIA) NOT SYRIA AND NOT EVER TURKEY ONLY IRAQ (MESOPOTAMIA) 




Ahmad Aown -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/3/2007 3:07:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sadiq2006

my dear Hanibaal Khaddam
 
there was no such as borders around mesopotamia only from the 1940's started it was (badiyat al sham) mountain region near mediteranion sea (roman sea) as they call it before al qamishly city it is originally iraqi city (mesopotamian) and hence all the rivers dijla and al furat that is in turkey and in syria it is all all all all for iraq (mesopotamia), those invaders british and the french they divided mesopotamia (iraq), and now they want to divided again for what for everyone to a god and the mesopotamians to suffer until the day of judgement comein this nuts it is mesopotamia (iraq) from 8000 or 7000 years ago till now only mesopotamia.  
 
  [image]http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby56GpelFvLYAFDCjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=12ch9u3r0/EXP=1173026566/**http%3A//www.ucm.es/info/antigua/Cartografia/hammurabi.jpg[/image]

[image]http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby4a7pelFEocA5QajzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=12b0j7sl1/EXP=1173026619/**http%3A//lrrc3.sas.upenn.edu/popcult/MAPS/mesopotamia.jpg[/image]

[image]http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby6HmpelFBOoABB2jzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=12n5jla7a/EXP=1173026662/**http%3A//edsitement.neh.gov/lesson_images/lesson622/Mesopotamia01.jpg[/image]

[image]http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby4QRpulFdnEBbRejzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=14at2vld9/EXP=1173026705/**http%3A//home.intekom.com/southafricanhistoryonline/pages/classroom/pages/projects/grade5/lesson4/Images/mesopotamia.jpg[/image]


[image]http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby6IvpulFJaAAXFyjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=12gvo3dsb/EXP=1173026735/**http%3A//www.bible-history.com/maps/maps/mesopotamia_trade.jpg[/image]


from haran and from diyar baker and from th uppor uppor uppor north of mesopotamia this is all all all all iraq, this is how it should be (NOT THOSE CRAZY BORDERS DISCUSTING BORDERS) FROM THE BRITISH AND THE FRENCH, NO THIS MESOPOTAMIA FROM HARAN AND FROM DIYAR BAKER THIS IS IRAQ AND IT WAS NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER KURDISTAN NO NO NO KURDISTAN, THIS IS ALL ORIGINAL IRAQ (MESOPOTAMIA) NOT SYRIA AND NOT EVER TURKEY ONLY IRAQ (MESOPOTAMIA) 

Sadiq2006
 
I can understand your sense of belonging, a True Iraqi who is so much attached to his Homeland.
But still I can see a lot of confusion in your references and Historical Background.
Tell me, If the Maps you illustrated show what Iraq is, then I suppose a Lot of the Iraqi Territories today do not Belong to Iraq, especially in the South and the eastern borders with present Iran. Not to mention the 8 year War Iraq has fought with Iran to Claim back Arabistan (Al Ahwaz), Plus so many other Areas that are Parts of Iraq where By they are not politically.
Allow me to Draw your attention to this important factor when you address a Homeland.
1- Political Borders are not necessarily Natural Borders. They are subject to Expand and Shrink depending on Political, Economical and Military circumstances.
 
2- A Homeland is the Natural Environment on which the Nation is Evolved. If you Check the Last Map you Posted, you would Notice that the Main Trade routes covered all of the Natural Syrian Homeland. you can even check the Natural Bounderies, The Tauros Mountains joinded by the Zagharos Mountain Series down South to the Persian Gulf, The Saudi Desert south west to the Red sea and the Sinai Desert, then West towards the Amoro Sea Known today as the mediterenian.
This is your Map, which is a True one.
 
3- The Name Syria is Derived from the Assyrian Empire which conquered the whole Syrian Nation, Thus the Territory was named after them,
Ashouria - Ashiria - Assyiria - Syria.
Which is completely different from The Syrian Arab Republic Today.
 
4- Remember that the Assyrians are an Ethnic group that first flourished in the Northern Area of Present Iraq. So in Fact thge Name Syria is something that you should be proud of since it is a Part of your History. ( Don't mix up political Issues and differences between both the Syrian State and the Iraqi State due to the Wrong approach of the Baath Regimes (On both Ends).
 
5- The Name Mesopotemia Limits the territory to the Bounderies of the Two Rivers.
بلاد ما بين النهرين Which is a Description of the Area that Embrassed a Great Civilization.
 
6- When we address a Nation, we Consider the Complete Life Cycle from the Economical, Strategic and Social Aspect, Never from the Political Perspective, Because Politics are a Result of the Nation's Vitality in expressing its Truth of Existance. If the Nation is Weak, the Political Borders have the Tendency to Shrink and a Lot of its Territories will be lost to the Favour of another Nation. If the Nation is Vitally strong, then Its Political Borders Expand Beyond its Natural Borders in Quest to Satisfy its Increasing Ambitions and Needs.
 
7- When, The SSNP (THE SYRIAN SOCIAL NATIONAL PARTY) Speaks of Natural Borders which include Iraq, Syria, Kuwait, Ahwaz, Jordan Palestine, Lebanon, Sinai, Kilikia and Cyprus, which is refered to as a Description of Fertility (The Fertile Cresent), That does Not mean the Elimination of the Great Potential of Iraq, On the Contrary, it means the Immunity of the whole Region Strategically, Economically and Socially from External Intervention. Unlike what is Happening today in Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine and the rest of the States..
 
8- The SSNP does Not recognize Kurdistan as an Independant entity, we do not adopt ethnical references in defining a Nation, Neither do we recognize Religious or Language for such. Our Definition for the Nation is as Such:
 
المبدأ الرابع
الأمة السورية هي وحدة الشعب
السوري المتولدة من تاريخ طويل
يرجع إلى ما قبل الزمن التاريخي الجلي
يتبع هذا المبدأ مبدأ التسلسل التحليلي. فهو تحديد لماهية الأمة المذكورة في المواد السابقة. وهو من حيث مدلوله الاثنلوجي يحتاج إلى تدقيق وإمعان. ليس القصد من هذا المبدأ رد الأمة السورية إلى أصل سلالي واحد معين، سامي أو آري، بل القصد منه إعطاء الواقع الذي هو النتيجة الأخيرة الحاصلة من تاريخ طويل يشمل جميع الشعوب التي نزلت هذه البلاد وقطنتها واحتكت فيها بعضها ببعض واتصلت وتمازجت، منذ عهد أقوام العصر الحجري المتأخر السابقة الكنعانيين والكلدان في استيطان هذه الأرض، إلى هؤلاء الأخيرين إلى الأموريين والحثيين والآراميين والأشوريين والأكاديين الذي صاروا شعباً واحداً. وهكذا نرى أن مبدأ القومية السورية ليس مؤسسا على مبدأ وحدة سلالية، بل على مبدأ الوحدة الاجتماعية الطبيعية لمزيج سلالي متجانس الذي هو المبدأ الوحيد الجامع لمصالح الشعب السوري، الموحد لأهدافه ومثله العليا، المنقذ القضيّة القومية من تنافر العصبيات الدموية البربرية والتفكك القومي.
إن الذين لا يفقهون شيئاً من مبادىء علم الاجتماع، ولا يعرفون تاريخ بلادهم، يحتجون على هذه الحقيقة بادعاء خلوص الأصل الدموي وتفضيل القوم بأصل واحد على الاعتراف بالمزيج الدموي. إنهم يرتكبون خطأين، خطأ علمياً وخطأ فلسفياً. فتجاهل الحقيقة التي هي أساس مزاجنا ونفسيتنا وإقامة وهم مقامها، فلسفة عقيمة تشبه القول بأن خروج جسم يدور على محور عن محوره أفضل لحركته! أما ادّعاء نقاوة السلالة الواحدة أو الدم فخرافة لا صحة لها في أمة من الأمم على الإطلاق وهي نادرة في الجماعات المتوحشة، ولا وجود لها إلا فيها.
كل الأمم الموجودة هي خليط من سلالات المفلطحي الرؤوس والمعتدلي الرؤوس والمستطيلي الرؤوس ومن عدة أقوام تاريخية. فإذا كانت الأمة السورية مؤلفة من مزيج من الكنعانيين والآراميين والأشوريين والكلدان والحثيين والأكاديين والمتني فإن الأمة الفرنسية مؤلفة من مزيج من الجلالقة واللغوريين والفرنك الخ. وكذلك الأمة الإيطالية مؤلفة من مزيج من الرومان واللاتين والسمنيين والاتروريين "الاتروسكيين" الخ. وقس على ذلك كل أمة أخرى. "السكسون والدانمركيون والنرمان، هذا ما نحن" هكذا يقول تنيسن في أمته الإنكليزية.
أما أفضلية خلوص الأصل ونقاوة السلالة على الامتزاج السلالي (خصوصاً بين السلالات الراقية المتجانسة) فقد قام الدليل على عكسه، فإن النبوغ السوري وتفوق السوريين العقلي على من جاورهم وعلى غيرهم أمر لا جدال فيه فهم الذين مدّنوا الإغريق ووضعوا أساس مدنية البحر المتوسط التي شاركهم فيها الإغريق فيما بعد. لقد كان النبوغ الإغريقي في اثينة المختلطة لا في اسبرطة الفخورة بأنسابها، المحافظة على صفاء دمها.
ومع ذلك لا بد من الاعتراف بواقع الفوارق السلالية، ووجود سلالات ثقافية، وسلالات منحطة، وبمبدأ التجانس والتباين الدموي أو العرقي. وبهذا المبدأ يمكننا أن نفهم أسباب تفوق السوريين النفسي الذي لا يعود إلى المزيج المطلق بل إلى نوعية المزيج المتجانس الممتازة والمتجانسة تجانساً قوياً مع نوعية البيئة.
إن مدلول الأمة السورية يشتمل على هذا المجتمع الموحد في الحياة، الذي امتزجت أصوله وصارت شيئاً واحداً، وهو المجتمع القائم في بيئة واحدة ممتازة عرفت تاريخياً باسم سورية وسماها العرب "الهلال الخصيب" لفظاً جغرافياً طبيعياً محض لا علاقة له بالتاريخ ولا بالأمة وشخصيتها. فالأصول المشتركة: الكنعانية - الكلدانية - الآرامية - الأشورية - الأمورية - الحثية - المتنية - الأكادية - التي، وجودها وامتزاجها حقيقة علمية تاريخية لا جدال فيها، هي أساس اتني - نفسي - تاريخي - ثقافي، كما أن مناطق سورية الطبيعية (الهلال الخصيب) هي وحدة جغرافية - زراعية - إقتصادية - إستراتيجية.
إن هذه الحقيقة الإتنية والجغرافية كانت ضائعة ومشوشة لتبعثرها في الحوادث التاريخية المتعاقبة، التي طمست الآثار وأقامت التعاريف الأجنبية المتعددة مقام حقيقة الواقع، ولتنوع الترجمات المتعددة لحوادث التاريخ القومي. فإن عدداً من المؤرخين قصر تعريف سورية على سورية البيزنطية أو الإغريقية المتأخرة الممتدة من طوروس والفرات إلى السويس، فأخرج الأشوريين والكلدان وتاريخ بابل ونينوى من تاريخ سورية. وإنّ عدداً آخر قصر تعريف سورية على البقعة ما بين كيليكية وفلسطين، فأخرج فلسطين أيضاً من تحديد سورية. وجميع هؤلاء المؤرخين هم أجانب لم يدركوا واقع الأمة السورية وواقع بيئتها وتطورات نشوئها. وقد جاراهم أكثر المشتغلين بالتاريخ من السوريين المتعلمين من التواريخ الأجنبية بلا تحقيق فالتَبَسَت علينا الحقيقة وضاعت معها قضيتنا الحقيقية، إلى أن أكملت تنقيبي وتحليلي وتعليلي، وحددت النتيجة في هذه المبادىء وأفصّلها بكاملها في كتاب علمي على حدة.
إن تاريخ الدول السورية القديمة الأكادية والكلدانية والأشورية والحثية والكنعانية والآرامية والأموية تدل كلها على اتجاه واحد: الوحدة السياسية والاقتصادية والاجتماعية في الهلال السوري الخصيب.
هذه الحقيقة تجعلنا نفهم الحروب الأشورية والكلدانية للسيطرة على جميع سورية فهماً جديداً يخالف الفهم المستمد من التحديدات غير الصحيحة. فهذه الحروب هي حروب داخلية. هي نزاع على السلطة بين قبائل الأمة الآخذة في التكون والتي استكملت فيما بعد تكونها. وإن الكلدان والآراميين هم شعب واحد في الأصل، ولسان واحد، فاللغة الآرامية هي الكلدانية، والأشوريون هم شق منهم أيضاً.
لا ينافي هذا المبدأ، مطلقاً، أن تكون الأمة السورية إحدى أمم العالم العربي، أو إحدى الأمم العربية. كما أن كون الأمة السورية أمة عربية لا ينافي أنها أمة تامة لها حق السيادة المطلقة على نفسها ووطنها. ولها، بالتالي، قضية قومية قائمة بنفسها مستقلة كل الاستقلال عن أية قضية أخرى. الحقيقة أن الغفلة عن هذا المبدأ الجوهري هي التي أعطت المذاهب الدينية في سورية المدية، التي قطعتها بين نزعة محمدية عربية ونزعة مسيحية فينيقية ومزقت وحدة الأمة وشتّتت قواها.
إن هذا المبدأ ينقذ سورية من النعرات الدموية، التي من شأنها إهمال المصلحة القومية العامة والإنصراف إلى الانشقاق والفساد والتخاذل. فالسوريون الذين يشعرون أو يعرفون أنهم من أصل آرامي، لا يعود يهمم إثارة نعرة دموية آرامية ضمن الأمة والبلاد، ما دام هنالك اتباع لمبدأ الوحدة القومية الاجتماعية والتساوي في الحقوق والواجبات المدنية والسياسية والاجتماعية بدون تمييز بين فارق دموي أو سلالي سوري.
وكذلك الذي يعلم أنه متحدّر من أصل فينيقي (كنعاني) أو عربي أو صليبي لا يعود يهمه سوى مسألة متحدة الاجتماعي، الذي تجري ضمنه جميع شؤون حياته، والذي على مصيره يتوقف مصير عياله وذريته وآماله ومثله العليا. هذا هو الوجدان القومي الصحيح. فإذا كانت النعرة الفينيقية هي الـ Thèse والنعرة العربية هي الـ Antithèse أو العكس، أي إذا كانت النعرتان الدينيتان تضعان نظريتين متعارضتين، فما لا شك فيه أن مبدأ وحدة الأمة السورية المؤلفة من سلالتين أساسيتين مديترانيّة وآرية، من العناصر التي كونت في مجرى التاريخ المزاج السوري والطابع السوري النفسي والعقلي، هو المبدأ الذي يقدم الـ Synthèse أو المخَْرَج النَظَري من تعارض النظريتين مذهباً واحداً هو القومية. إن في هذا المبدأ إنهاء جدل عقيم يهمل الواقع المحسوس ويتثبت باللاحسي. جدل يحل علم الكلام محل علم الاجتماع.
لا يمكن أن يؤول هذا المبدأ بأنه يجعل اليهودي مساوياً في الحقوق والمطالب للسوري، وداخلاً في معنى الأمة السورية. فتأويل كهذا بعيد جداً عن مدلول هذا المبدأ الذي لا يقول، مطلقاً، باعتبار العناصر المحافظة على عصبيات أو نعرات قومية أو خاصة، غريبة، داخلة في معنى الأمة السورية. إن هذه العناصر ليست داخلة في وحدة الشعب.
إن في سورية عناصر وهجرات كبيرة متجانسة مع المزيج السوري الأصلي، يمكن أن تهضمها الأمة إذا مر عليها الزمن الكافي لذلك، ويمكن أن تذوب فيها وتزول عصبياتها الخاصة. وفيها هجرة كبيرة لا يمكن بوجه من الوجوه أن تتفق مع مبدأ القومية السورية هي الهجرة اليهودية. إنها هجرة خطرة لا يمكن أن تهضم لأنها هجرة شعب اختلط مع شعوب كثيرة فهو خليط متنافر خطر وله عقائد غريبة جامدة وأهدافه تتضارب مع حقيقة الأمة السورية وحقوقها وسيادتها ومع المثل العليا السورية تضارباً جوهرياً. وعلى السوريين القوميين أن يدفعوا هذه الهجرة بكل قوتهم.




Hanibaal Khaddam -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/3/2007 3:25:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sadiq2006

my dear Hanibaal Khaddam
 
there was no such as borders around mesopotamia only from the 1940's started it was (badiyat al sham) mountain region near mediteranion sea (roman sea) as they call it before al qamishly city it is originally iraqi city (mesopotamian) and hence all the rivers dijla and al furat that is in turkey and in syria it is all all all all for iraq (mesopotamia), those invaders british and the french they divided mesopotamia (iraq), and now they want to divided again for what for everyone to a god and the mesopotamians to suffer until the day of judgement comein this nuts it is mesopotamia (iraq) from 8000 or 7000 years ago till now only mesopotamia.  
 
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[image]http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby6HmpelFBOoABB2jzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=12n5jla7a/EXP=1173026662/**http%3A//edsitement.neh.gov/lesson_images/lesson622/Mesopotamia01.jpg[/image]

[image]http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby4QRpulFdnEBbRejzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=14at2vld9/EXP=1173026705/**http%3A//home.intekom.com/southafricanhistoryonline/pages/classroom/pages/projects/grade5/lesson4/Images/mesopotamia.jpg[/image]


[image]http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby6IvpulFJaAAXFyjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=12gvo3dsb/EXP=1173026735/**http%3A//www.bible-history.com/maps/maps/mesopotamia_trade.jpg[/image]


from haran and from diyar baker and from th uppor uppor uppor north of mesopotamia this is all all all all iraq, this is how it should be (NOT THOSE CRAZY BORDERS DISCUSTING BORDERS) FROM THE BRITISH AND THE FRENCH, NO THIS MESOPOTAMIA FROM HARAN AND FROM DIYAR BAKER THIS IS IRAQ AND IT WAS NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER KURDISTAN NO NO NO KURDISTAN, THIS IS ALL ORIGINAL IRAQ (MESOPOTAMIA) NOT SYRIA AND NOT EVER TURKEY ONLY IRAQ (MESOPOTAMIA) 


Dear Sadiq,
 
You are absolutely correct in stating that the British and the French divided our nation into the statelets we have today, and are continuing in this quest.  However, not only Iraq/Mesopotamia was divided, but our entire homeland was fragmented according to the wishes of foreign colonialists. 
 
The entire Syrian homeland (Fertile Crescent) historically was connected economically and socially, as I stated above.  It was also unified politically during several periods in our history.  Unfortunately, the initial division took place under the Byzantine and Persian Safavid Empires, where Syria was divided between East and West.  The western portion continued to carry the name Syria, while the eastern side was named Irah by the Persians, meaning "land to the west", which was later arabicized into al-3iraq.  However, the division of our nation into separate political entities never negated or terminated our national (socio-economic) unity. 
 
Historians, who were largely influenced by their Roman and Greek predecessors, continued to confine the name Syria to the western part of the Fertile Crescent while treating the eastern part as a separate national entity, and ascribing to it the term Mesopotamia.  However, these historians failed to grasp the historical unity of the entire Syrian homeland, as their interpretation of our history took a Heleno-centric character.  British historians Amelie Kuhn and Susan Sherwin-White have independently advanced exactly such an opinion, claiming "that where there is no clear Greek evidence a political, social and cultural vacuum is assumed."  They further state that "Another distorting factor has been the preoccupation of Roman historians who have tended (not unnaturally) to concentrate almost exclusively on those regions of the Seleucide empire which by the first century BC had become part of the Roman empire. This approach has led them to...[ignore] the central importance of the vast territories controlled by the Seleucid east of the Euphrates'."
 
Moreover, Historian Fergus Millar further elaborates on this issue by stating the following: "'By 'Syria' I mean anywhere west of the Euphrates and south of the Amanus mountains-essentially therefore the area west of the Euphrates where Semitic languages were used ... This begs a question about Asia Minor (and especially Cilicia), from which Aramaic documents are known, and a far more important one about northern Mesopotamia and about Babylonia; Should we not, that is, see the various Aramaic-speaking areas of the Fertile Crescent as representing a single culture, or at any rate closely connected cultures, and therefore not attempt to study the one area without the others?"
 
Also, just to clarify an additional point you brought up, what is today called the Mediterranean Sea was actual historically referred to as the Syrian Sea.  This name was used as early as the second century AD by Claudius Ptolemy, who identifies the mediterranean sea in his map as "Mare Syriacum".  It continued to be in use until about the 18th Century when the name began to be replaced by "The Grand Sea" and "The Levant Sea".
 
The bottom line is that our nation has been divided and our history distorted by foreign occupiers who wished to see us weak and divided.  This is why they are continuing in their objective by emphasizing our sectarian and ethnic divisions.  It is up to us, however, to put an end to this exploitation and become aware of our national unity.  As Ahmad Aown suggested, why is it that Iraq, just as the rest of our nation, is so easily exploitable by foreign occupiers?  Why is it that we are easily divided and continue to identify ourselves with our particularistic groups, whatever they may be, rather than with our nation?




azinorum -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/3/2007 5:38:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ahmad Aown
you don't know anything about us personally, neither do you know anything about our Ideology, (Maybe what Wikipedia tells you which is too shallow to consider).


Of course I know nothing about you personally. I mentioned that you were perhaps members of the party because the manner in which you approach your posts. Your intimate knowledge of AS ideology and your opening tribute to him would suggest that if you’re not members then at least serious followers/students. So I don’t think I was presuming too much when I made that statement.




Hanibaal Khaddam -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/3/2007 7:03:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: azinorum

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ahmad Aown
you don't know anything about us personally, neither do you know anything about our Ideology, (Maybe what Wikipedia tells you which is too shallow to consider).


Of course I know nothing about you personally. I mentioned that you were perhaps members of the party because the manner in which you approach your posts. Your intimate knowledge of AS ideology and your opening tribute to him would suggest that if you’re not members then at least serious followers/students. So I don’t think I was presuming too much when I made that statement.


You are correct in deducting that we are members of Saadeh's party, but I think what Ahmad Aown was referring to was your terming us "paid members".  He was merely clarifying that such a term indicates a lack of knowledge of us personally, and our party in general. 

In addition, we came here to introduce a philosophy which we believe offers the only solution for our problems.  We are not selling anything, nor do we expect that members of this forum would immediately accept our ideas and embrace us.  However, we are believers in intellectual struggle and are always open to intellectual debate with all our citizens.  We also believe that the truth, and the best thought, shall eventually prevail.




Ahmad Aown -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/4/2007 1:02:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: azinorum

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ahmad Aown
you don't know anything about us personally, neither do you know anything about our Ideology, (Maybe what Wikipedia tells you which is too shallow to consider).


Of course I know nothing about you personally. I mentioned that you were perhaps members of the party because the manner in which you approach your posts. Your intimate knowledge of AS ideology and your opening tribute to him would suggest that if you’re not members then at least serious followers/students. So I don’t think I was presuming too much when I made that statement.

Azinorum

Paid Members?
How did you arrive to this conclusion?
 
Nevertheless, We are Members of the SSNP, and we are proud to be.
Paid? No.
Driven? Yes, But by our Believes that we are one Nation, and what belongs to us belong equally to you.
But we are not the point of the thread, are we?
 
 




azinorum -> RE: Antoun Saadeh (3/4/2007 2:15:43 AM)

Paid up members is an English term for members who regularly pay membership fees required to remain active members of their club, society of party. It doesn't mean your are being paid by your party to spread its propaganda.




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